Oma Rest: Philip x Mike

Hi! Today's an exciting day - we're launching our second prefab building option, the Outpost Medium prefab. Given that launch, I'm excited to share a conversation I had with Philip a few weeks back. Philip built the Outpost Plus - a close cousin to the Medium. If you're curious about the Outpost Medium prefab, you can check out Philip's story - it might just shed some insight. 

Cheers!

1. Intro & Land Search

Nate: Philip, can we just get you to say your first name, model you're building, where you're building it? 

Philip: My name is Philip, my wife is Heather, and we are building a DEN Outpost plus in Northern Wisconsin.

A little bit north of Manitowish Waters, very close to the upper Michigan border. 

Mike: All right, so let's just jump right into it. First question, right? So what made you decide to build your own place instead of just buying something?

Philip: It's been a journey. My wife and I have been, outdoors people. We went - we're in the Twin Cities of Minnesota- oftentimes to Cook County and what we call the North Shore here in Minnesota. Looking at a lot of land and cabins and new developments, that are happening up there.

At one point we looked at a seasonal cabin place and saw like five cabins and thought, 'wow, what a cool idea to have a series of cabins that we would rent out for folks in this beautiful part of the country'. We kind of put a pin on Minnesota. I'm from Wisconsin and started looking in Wisconsin because, somehow it's the same beauty and same sort of remoteness that goes in, the environs of Wisconsin, but maybe a little less discovered or less explored in some of the more quiet areas of Wisconsin.

And so we found a great piece of land in the North Woods, that we just started with just purchasing outright, thinking about an eventual sort of development of some sort. So we bought that piece of land. It's 300 feet of shoreline on a little 80 acre lake that's really quiet and off the beaten path, but still on a paved road to get there.

And we started just as a camping endeavor on that land, but had visions for what it could be. Thinking about those original sort of exposures to some of the rentals or places and properties that we had seen in Northern Minnesota. 

2. Vision for the Build

Philip: And we knew we wanted something different and interesting, right? We wanted something that was not like buying a old rustic cabin and kind of perpetuating what seemed to us as sort of outdated or outmoded way of  doing cabins. We didn't wanna do something that was huge and another home, so to speak. We wanted to create something that was right sized for visitors and right sized for what we think is the modern update on the cabin experience.

We had looked at a lot of different things. We actually went through some of the initial DEN designs that were a little bit smaller in footprint. But when the Outpost plus came out, we kind of said, 'well, this is the right size for what we're looking for', and would offer sort of the comfort and experience that we hope to bring and provide for folks.

Mike: That's awesome. You are my cabin brother from another mother, because everything that you just said is like what we are trying to broadcast, into the world, and I'm glad that all of that resonated with you. 

Unrelated, nate's gonna be like, 'Mike, why are you even asking this question?'

But what does the water temperature get to in that lake in like, let's say end of August? 

Philip: Well, it's a deep lake. It's, I think at it's deepest, 88 or 90 feet. 

Mike: Oh wow. Holy shit. That's deep. 

Philip: Yeah. So it takes a while to warm up in August is definitely the, the place that it is. I don't know have the temperature off the top of my head. But when it's a warm day and it's 80 degrees, it's exhilarating. That's all I can say. And for me, who is somebody who likes to do some of the cold water plunge stuff, I always go in whenever I can. I would say it's most comfortable for folks who are looking for a warmer swim in late July and August.

But, for those of us who are a little bit brave and want that kind of feel of getting into the water and know that it's gonna be a little bit cooler, we take it at all times, so. 

3. Why the Outpost Plus?

Mike: Nice, nice. Well cool. back on track to the interview. So which DEN design did you end up picking and was there something special about it that just clicked for you?

Philip: So we went with the Outpost Plus, if that's the terminology. But, we were looking for something really architecturally unique and interesting, obviously, love the idea of a lot of glass. This notion of kind of having a cathedral in the trees, so to speak, that you're looking out and seeing as much of the outdoors coming in, as possible.

Philip: We saw that in several of the designs, but when we saw the Outpost, it seemed something unique. You know, I grew up in a-frame, in Wausau, Wisconsin. So I always appreciate the A-frames, and that styling, but this kind of felt like an update to that for us, a nice lofted experience, and something really visually unique and stunning to kind of look at.

4. Layout, Use, and Living Experience

Mike: Nice, nice. How does the layout work for you and, how does it either fit your lifestyle or the guest experience that you wanna provide to people? 

Philip: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's gonna be awesome. Some of the comments that we've had are, 'wow, you could really live here, one could live here'.

It's plenty of space. Once you add that loft and have that extra 300 plus square feet, on that second level, the living space on the main level is for me, ideal and kind of accentuates that idea of it's enough. Enough to be inside and be comfortable, you need to be, but also again, pours out into the outdoors pretty quickly.

Philip: So it straddles that pretty well for us. I think that was an appeal. The fact that you have a isolated single bedroom, in the backside of the design, will be great for guests for us. So you'll have the comfort of having a main level bedroom, you know, opportunity to add some additional, bedroom and and furniture on the loft and have that space kind of be multifunctional, multifaceted, both as living space and as bedroom space. 

But then just having enough on the main floor to really have your kitchen and your couch and chairs to kind of sit and grab a book and read or do the things you need to do to prepare meals. 

5. Milestones and Favorite Build Moments

Mike: Awesome, awesome.

So before you mentioned that the project is currently in progress, right? What's been the best part of this whole building adventure so far? 

Philip: Yeah. Well, I think for us, just, seeing things go vertical. Every step of the way has been incredible. You know, we've had some protracted parts of the project where we get the framing done and then we're kind of waiting and, the seasonality of it and the parts where we're getting people involved to build aspects.

But for us, like just once we are framed and seeing the size of it and seeing just the angles and unique parts of it was super exciting. Another big next stage for us was when the windows came in right? we started with kind of window openings and as most people experience, windows are a long, long order cycle, from ordering to delivery.

And so when windows came in, it was just like another exhilarating moment because you're imagining this view and for us it's at sort of, grade, right with the lake. So you have this view on the main level directly out to the lake. You're kind of on even footing with that and you've got all these trees around you and creating that sort of cathedral of trees feeling, that's what we're looking for, for an experience. 

So we've been excited about those little slash big milestones along the way. But for us, every time that we see something new, whether it's drywall on the interiors or something along those lines, it's like, 'oh yeah, this is really gonna be an amazing space'.

6. Challenges & Learnings

Mike: Awesome. Awesome. So conversely, right, like I bet it wasn't all smooth sailing. You mentioned a couple of protracted periods where like certain stages were done and you're waiting for the next stage to start. what has been the biggest headache you've run into during construction? 

Philip: Well, this is probably not relative to anything with the DEN designs themselves.

I think, us just knowing the right people to kind of come in and, and support at the right places. And, we're from the Twin Cities and so the area that we're building and is a little bit further afield. We didn't know a lot of people who would be local to help us out in the beginning.

So we brought some folks in to support framing on the front end from the Twin Cities area. And that just became difficult to kinda manage some of the steps of the process from afar. So we've kind of broken in and found some great local folks to help us build. We're not total DIYers. There's some elements that we're gonna do, obviously ourselves from on the interior side, but, really I've appreciated kind of finding the right mix of local contractors who know the area well, and can help us bring this thing to life. 

Mike: Oh, that's awesome. You know, we ask that question because we want to paint an accurate picture of what it means to build something. building a house will be one of the biggest and most complex things someone undertakes in their life.

And it's not just all like perfect architectural shots of finished thing, right? You know, sometimes there's some challenges along the way, right? So we wanna be real about that with the folks that, that we help to support. So. Cool. 

Philip: I'll add this, 'cause I think localizing the engineering of the builds is an important step that, one is gonna need to take in that process.

So going in head first, sometimes making sure that you have the different elements, the designs sort of engineered appropriately. For us, we'll be in basically upper Michigan, I mean the northern parts of Wisconsin. So snow loads are a huge thing that are gonna be part of what we're gonna have to manage.

But that's something that you really just need to consider as you're working through the design. 

7. Customization, Cost, and the DEN Process

Mike: That's something that we love to hear also. Because, as we design DENs, we have to pick kind of like a general use case, right? but have also built like product and a process that helps to enable localization, right?

So, we constantly encourage customers to work, with local engineering firms, local designers in some cases and also, local trades, right, and local contractors. We're really proud of the fact that we're able to enable local economies as well.

So that's really cool. What a great tip. So, we know that you are a DEN fan boy, right? But apart from DEN, like who, you know, who's an architect or a designer that really inspires you and has their style rubbed off on your place at all? 

Philip: Well, um, there's a fabulous architect out of Duluth, Minnesota, and I always butcher his last name, but it's Doug Salmela, I believe is how it's pronounced.

He's very much inspired by Scandinavian architecture, he has a lot of work in the Twin Cities, as well as some places up in Duluth and further in the North Shore. he is kind of a constant person that we would reference when it comes to architectural movements.

There's local architects in the Twin cities. One of 'em is Solid Designs as well. So I think we look at some of the new and upcoming stuff out of our area in sort of the modern vein or even Scandinavian inspired vein, as well as, you know, just your run of the mill stuff that you might see in any issue of Dwell or, modern architecture reference points, I guess.

Mike: Cool. You kind of talked a little bit about various spots in the house that you really like. Just based on how it's coming together and the time that you've spent in the house, what is your absolute favorite spot in the house? The place that makes you think, 'yeah, this is why I did this'.

Philip: Oh, that's gonna be a tough call. I do think it's the loft. I think it's, sort of being up and feeling as though you get a little bit of that in the trees feeling, when you're up, up a little bit higher. But it's gonna be a, a tough call between that and just being in the main floor living room where you just feel like you're, for us at, at eye view with the trees and lake and kind of being able to look up and look out, and feel the sense of awe that you get from having the outdoors coming in. 

Mike: Nice. Nice. Did you stick to the original plan or did you throw in some of your own ideas? And if so, what tweaks did you make?

Philip: For us, a couple tweaks. The original outpost design was built on sauna tubes, and we decided that we wanted to do slab on grade so that we could do in-floor heating, um, as part of an element that we thought would provide comfort for folks. So that's, that's part of our build.

We made some adjustments to window framing. we really enjoy like the modern pieces of both the bathroom and living room windows and where they are, but we wanted to make sure that we could also expand them to kind of make our views a little bit more picturesque. So we did that in the living room.

We brought the height of the window up a little bit. We did change the configuration of the bathroom windows, just with our sensibilities and long-term maintenance, just kind of thinking about practicality of windows in kind of the shower areas. We wanted to change that up. We want the natural light in there, but we wanna make sure that we don't have to worry about it long-term. and getting the right sort of elements architecturally probably was a little cost prohibitive for us. so we made those tweaks. they were minor, for us and sort of practical.

I can't think of anything else that's been too custom at this point, but I think once we get to a little bit more on the finished side, we'll see what we wanna adjust, in some of the spaces. Thinking particularly about the bench and cubby space that kind of is right next to, or adjacent to the steps going up to the loft. we have some visions for creating some shelving in there for a library for guests or storage for guests, so. 

Mike: That's awesome. If a friend was thinking about building their own DEN, what would you tell them? Are there any words of wisdom? Or what was your favorite part of using DEN to kick off this project? 

Philip: I push a lot of people to the DEN site just so that they can see some of the incredible designs and kind of sort through what's out there. And I think the fact that designs continue to get updated and, reimagined or expanded upon, you know, starting with some, some initial designs and then really kind of pushing them.

I think that to me, affirms that this is a place of innovation and sort of leading edge design. And so for me that was attractive and I think I would say people just check it out and take a look. See if you find something that you like, there. And then again, if you need to localize it or think about ways in which you would take that and kind of create a bespoke version of that, it was really easy to purchase the designs and think through that and send off the drawings we've had compliments from those folk folks building or contributing to the building, how easy the plans are to follow and how comprehensive. So that's been good. A little visitor coming through here. 

Mike: Hello, little visitor peeking through the blur, the blurriness. Um, 

Philip: apologies guys. 

Mike: All good. I've got two little visitors myself. 

Who are at the playground right now. Hi. Hello. 

So we constantly run into this challenge with customers.

There's like a bit of a chicken or egg situation and would love to get your take on it, right? So some of our customers are like, 'Hey, we wanna know how much this thing will cost in this place'. Right? Let's call it, you know, Northern Wisconsin, right? Yeah. And we're like, 'Hey, we can give you a directional estimate but the best way to find out an accurate local price is to get the plans, to cost them out or price them with a local builder', right? And then our prospective customers say, 'well, I can't buy the plans unless I actually know if this is gonna be affordable'.

So what advice would you give to either us or to our customers who are trying to figure out like how to budget for, or price their project? And if there's anything that you could say relative to like how the DEN plans enabled you to like, get to a price, that might be helpful for us as well.

Philip: We were pretty much, we were close to the ballpark I think cost-wise, if we think about, the original sort of guidance that was available on the DEN site. I think, you know, we're in a strange economic arena or have been for the last couple years. So like when you look at certain, um, pricing throughout the, the Twin Cities or even in Northern Minnesota, you know, projects were hitting about 450 a square foot or 500 a square foot, you know, depending on where you're building.

We had a sort of a target in mind that we wanted to keep to that, you know, $250 per square foot project amount. And so I think we're kind of building out from that budget. I would say we're dialed close to that. I'd have to double check our figures, but, you know, I think there's some decisions that we've been making along the way to determine, how to keep in line with that, you know?

I love all of the materials and material suggestions that DEN provides. but we've kind of broken from those in various places whether or not we're doing our custom cabinets, from a local, contractor or, deciding on different flooring options or that kind of thing.

So for us, I think we started out with a target of what was realistic on that square footage price and have been trying to keep into that, that realm. I think it was good guidance from, from, DEN originally. I know it's variable depending on where you're building. fortunately for us in northern Wisconsin, it seems to be pretty true to that, 250 per square foot.

Mike: And then when you started to price the project out with your local builder and trades, what was that process like using a set of DEN plans? 

Philip: Um. You know, I think because we had a little bit of a bifurcation between the contractor who started and who's kind of carrying it through, to me both were pretty straightforward.

For us, it was just the hiccup in between of kind of transferring who did what on the front end. So when we went from purchasing the materials and framing the materials. That was sort of one set of calculations that we made with one contractor, and then sort of, carrying it forward from frame in, to dry in.

Basically we got all dried in, and then, and then from from there on, our second contractor was pretty straightforward in giving us a estimate that that worked for us. So I don't have a lot of advice. This is our first time building in that space. And so kind of, I think we'll learn a lot and figure out how, to avoid certain things and make sure we understand the totality of costs upfront.

But we had a unique situation in which we kind had to shift gears about mid project. So. 

8. Future Plans & Personal Philosophy

Mike: Cool. That's great. You mentioned that you wanted to build out some sort of compound. So the last question I have for you is, would you do it again?

Would you go bigger? Would you go smaller? Do you wanna build another DEN? 

Philip: Yeah, I mean, every time I see a design, I think a lot about how this Barnhouse would be, or the alpine would be. We have an adjacent lot to our place. We purchased a second lot, so we essentially have 600 feet of shoreline on this beautiful lake.

I don't know that we would do it as a short term rental, but my folks are getting up in those years and we'd love to be able to do something that was a second guest house for them where they can be comfortable and stay. Not to get too into the details here, but when we looked at some of the designs early on, we thought about doing something in conjunction with a lot of the local recreation sites that are out and available where we are. We've got a great like cross country ski, mountain bike trail system that's burgeoning, just 20 miles to the south of us. We've got ABR, which is a pretty well-known cross country ski destination, in Ironwood, Michigan.

We've got great skiing just 30 minutes north of us. so we think all the time about where would that sort of, that sweet spot be, where we're not building necessarily on our lake, you know, to build out and add pressure to our small lake. But finding that right piece of land where we could continue to cultivate and support this idea of a short-term rental, that helps people take advantage of nature and the recreation opportunities that are maybe a little bit still on the upswing in those areas or to some extent places that people, we feel like really need to see and experience for themselves. So. 

Mike: What a thoughtful approach to real estate development, and investment and providing an experience to your guests, while, really just like honoring, some great ideas around sustainability and, sensitivity to the environment.