Hygge on Seneca: Nicole x Mike

Hello! Today's chat is with Nicole LaGreca, who decided to develop a DEN Outpost Plus in the Finger Lakes region. Nicole & I chat the build, running a short term rental, and sourcing materials among other things.

See Hygge Seneca's (Nicole's DEN) rental listing here.

1. Intro & Project Overview

Mike: So let's start first with: what's your name, which DEN did you build and where did you build it?

Nicole: Yeah. My name is Nicole LaGreca, I built the DEN Outpost Plus. I did have some minor customization done by DEN, and I built in the Finger Lakes region in New York State on Seneca Lake. 

Mike: Amazing. Amazing. What is your favorite wine that the Finger Lakes produces? 

Nicole: I would have to say most consistently, Cabernet Franc is the best grape, and you can find really good Cabernet Francs throughout the whole region.

Mike: Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. We also discovered, prior to kicking off this interview that we are both residents of Philadelphia. so That's amazing. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

2. Design Choices & Inspiration

Mike: I drive three and a half hours to the Catskills from time to time. And you drive four and a half hours to the Finger Lakes. But, I feel like we should... I'm gonna come visit you, in the Finger Lakes.

Because Yeah. DEN in the Finger Lakes. Plus... 

Nicole: Come stay in the DEN! So the other thing about this DEN -I'm ad-libbing now- yeah. Is that, I'm gonna take you for a little walk out here for a second. Ooh.

Mike: Oh, amazing. 

Nicole: So this view is just absolutely horrible. 

Mike: Holy shit. 

Yeah. Your, your view is terrible. 

Nicole: Awful! 

Mike: Yeah. Oh man. You should just burn the house. 

Nicole: So, yeah. And then, you know, it just really sucks if you might have to get in the hot tub. 

Mike: Oh no. 

Nicole: You know? Yeah. And then go for a swim down in the lake. So you definitely wanna, 

Mike: oh, that's... 

Nicole: you should come stay in my DEN!

Mike: Yeah, that's too bad. That looks incredible. Also, I was noticing that they did a great job in framing out the loft protection, if you could point up there like that looks really cool. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Nicole: So, we made a few modifications on that. we use standard two by fours. 

Mike: Nice. 

Nicole: We felt that the recommended lumber may not be rigid enough in a rental setting.

Mike: Hmm. Yeah. 

Nicole: And then what we did was we just smoothed them out so that they didn't look like just rough lumber. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Nicole: So they kind of have rounded edges. 

Mike: Okay. Cool. 

Nicole: Yeah. And we put like a little drink rail on them also. 

Mike: Amazing. Amazing. 

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. 

Mike: Cool. So 

Nicole: love that detail. 

Mike: Yeah. And it looks really, really well executed.

So nice work, nice work. so yes, you are a real estate veteran, right? You've been in the industry for quite some time, so this is a great question for you. What made you decide to build your own place instead of just buying something in the Finger Lakes? 

Nicole: Well, part of it is scarcity, but in general a lot of the architecture up here is very traditional and I kind of leapt off into the abyss and built a house three years ago. It was a traditional kind of log kit and I loved doing new construction and I said, I really wanna do something modern and smart, but due to the size of my lot, I knew it would need to be a smaller footprint. And I had been aware of DEN through Dwell and actually a colleague of mine that works for a log company, log home company. And I just knew that I wanted to build something like that. Because it was stick-built too. I wanted to do a stick-built. 

Mike: Awesome. Awesome. 

3. Building Process & Challenges

Nicole: And I just wanted it to be mine. Me, my concept, and the framework that I found with the Outpost Plus was just, it was right up my alley and I knew that I had a good template to work with.

Mike: Awesome. Awesome. Um, and so you mentioned having something appropriately sized and modern as key characteristics of DEN, but yeah, curious to hear why you went for a DEN plan. What was it that caught your eye about our design catalog in general and, about the Outpost Plus specifically. 

Nicole: I thought all of the designs were really thoughtful. I liked the fact that they could be an accessory dwelling unit or a standalone concept, both. And I liked that you had a really one-stop shop situation. I didn't have to mess around interviewing architects, it was just all right there.

And spatially, when you look at them, they, for the most part, all made sense. There's a couple of challenges with the space, but in the smaller homes, that is a challenge. It's something you have to realize when you take on doing what I call a tiny home or. Smaller home. 

Mike: Yeah, I mean, I think that that's definitely our forte, right?

Like, you know, smaller footprint, highly efficient buildings. And, you know, having been part of the design process now for about like 40 buildings, that becomes a catalog. I both love and am frustrated by the challenge of like trying to make it all work in a small footprint.

Nicole: Yeah. 

Mike: It is like a real intense game of Tetris. 

Nicole: You know, it really is. The stairs must be the biggest challenge in a small space, right? But I have to say, when you said you were involved in the design process, you did a good job with however it worked out. I passed my blower door test with flying colors and my other home that I built did not pass that test at all, and I had to do something different to get my certificate of occupancy, so 

Mike: Oh wow.

Nicole: Yeah, so they're, they're pretty energy efficient, I would imagine depending on what your clients do for foundation can change that. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 

Nicole: But they're pretty efficient. Yeah. 

Mike: So you mentioned that you're currently sitting in an Outpost Plus, which is really-

Nicole: I am! 

Mike: -The coolest part of this interview.

What was it about the outpost plus that clicked for you and why did you select that that design? 

Nicole: I mean, gosh, it's got a feeling of luxury, but it makes so much practical sense at the same time. So like for me, I love being out in nature and it was important that I build a home that brought the nature in, but still afforded you privacy.

It does both of those things and having the great room, you feel like you're in a huge space. Gosh, I kind of try to market toward couples who wanna kind of get a, like a woo la la getaway and you come here and you can feel that way, where it's just you're the only two people on earth.

So that's kinda what attracted me to the design. I thought I could achieve that. 

Mike: Awesome. What's been the best part of the whole building adventure for you so far with regard to this project? 

Nicole: Wow. I mean, every time I do something new I learn so much. And for me, this build was a culmination of learning a lot of dos and don'ts about building on the kind of terrain that I have.

And it was also really refreshing to have solid plans already in place. You know, it was really easy to get an engineer to stamp the plans and get the building permit, so that part of it was just wow, like boom, compared to Philadelphia. It's a very easy process. Yeah, and just really, it was exciting.

I came up with the concept to use a two car garage as the foundation. It solved a lot of problems for me that I had run into building on this type of property before where I wouldn't need the a retaining wall, and I didn't want to create an erosion issue. We're on a very steep topography here, and when we get rain events, water gets a lot of velocity, right?

So it was really cool coming up with that concept. On one side of the house, it's almost even with the hill and on the other side you feel like you're up in the tree house. 

Mike: Hmm. Yeah. 

Nicole: So it was really cool seeing it and it's such an interesting shape.

Like I just took this awesome photo with my cell phone just to put on my Facebook page with the fall leaves and stuff, and it looks like, just a monolith, like an asymmetrical monolith. It's just really wild seeing that during the building process. 

Mike: That's awesome. That's awesome.

We just actually released a new version of the outpost, called the Outpost medium, which is like three bedroom, three bath building. It's pretty substantial, because, you know, our customers have been really, really into the design that you opted to build, which is really, really cool.

Also, like it's worth saying, right, that, building a building is a complex process, right?

Nicole: Yes. 

Mike: Might be one of the most complex things someone undertakes like in their life, right?

If you've ever planned like graduation party or a wedding like this is like, you know, that time's like a hundred at least. Right. you kind of have explained that this has been like a really incredible project for you and a labor of love and, you know, you got to learn a lot.

But wondering if there were any moments where it wasn't smooth sailing and like what were the biggest headaches you ran into during construction? 

Nicole: Yeah. A few. So somehow the way the stairs and the bathroom were interacting with the window opening wasn't really translating from paper to reality.

So there was a little back and forth on that. The bench that's part of the stairs that never really happened properly. So I don't know. And the weird thing is, the framing was to spec. So, yeah, so there was that. And in hindsight, I probably might have done something different there and try to reconfigure that whole space under the stairs.

As it is, I made it into a cubby hole where I can store things locked away from the renters and a laundry closet. 

Mike: Oh, cool. 

Nicole: And it worked out. 

Mike: Nice. 

Nicole: Another challenging thing was, I was really concerned with the type of climate that we have here, that the house does not have any overhang, no roof overhang.

So rain waters literally dribbling down walls and having a background in high rise building management and knowing about water intrusion you know, it's just something that I toiled with. So we decided to go with a standing seam metal siding in addition to the roof. 

Mike: Oh, cool. Oh, interesting.

Nicole: Yeah. So the whole building is metal clad. 

Mike: Cool. I'm presuming that there's an air gap between the metal cladding and the structural cladding. 

Nicole: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. it's working out fine. I think that when you're dealing with homes that are not specifying a roof overhang for some of these types of climates, there should be a discussion around it and I'd love to be part of that round table.

Mike: Yeah! 

Nicole: Um. Another challenge, other than my terrain, I opted to do an oversized custom sliding door. And I had some challenges with that door, but that was remedied. 

Mike: Cool. And then procedurally did you have any hard times with the well or the septic or trenching or services?

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely both. So where we are, we're required if we're within a certain distance of a stream or the lake, to have an aerobic septic system and we had to build quite a mound. For an Eljen Sandbed. And then it's like a three chamber system.

So that was pretty challenging. For water, I decided to do a beach front well. normally I just have a pump trucked out into the lake. Um, but then you need a diver to service that pump, which can be problematic. So we did a beach well. I didn't foresee that there would be sulfur so close to the lake, so I'm gonna need to be installing a more extensive water filtration system in the off season.

Mike: Yeah. Gotcha. 

Nicole: So that was unforeseen and that had to be done by barge. They had to come in with a barge and do it. And then we had to use a ditch witch to get the... it's a seasonal system. It's a three season system, but we still had to drill with a ditch witch through the hill. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Nicole: To the house.

Mike: Yeah. Interesting. And then, you know, out of curiosity, like did the builder you started with, finish the project with you? 

Nicole: Yes. 

Mike: Amazing. 

Nicole: 100%. Yes. 

Mike: Yes. Cool! 

Nicole: And I will work with him again, hopefully. 

Mike: Amazing. 

Nicole: And it's interesting 'cause he was a new builder to me. I did not use the same builder that did my previous project up here.

Mostly 'cause he didn't want to come to my side of the lake again so soon. And he was very expedient and my project was probably an eight month project. Which is unheard of. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Nicole: It's unheard of in this area.

Mike: End to end. That's incredible. You know, the power of starting with something that's really well defined.

Right. 

Nicole: That makes all the difference. And I think that, um, something that was kind of interesting too is, you know, you never know what your site is quite gonna be like when you start building. And so really my outdoor decking evolved during the process and, I don't know how familiar [you are] with the Finger Lakes, but a lot of our lakefront properties like mine included, you have pretty steep cliffs to get down to the lake, so you have to build a meandering kind of staircase down to the lake from the property.

And it was just really great to have the house already situated. There were no surprises. So that I had the ability to kind of design the exterior parts of it on the fly. 

Mike: Cool. 

Nicole: Otherwise, I don't think I would've been able to accomplish that, especially in that timeframe. 

Mike: That's cool. you mentioned also that you are renting this particular DEN out.

How's that going for you so far? 

Nicole: Much better than I anticipated. So I do work with a professional management company that's been professionally managing specifically lakefront rentals in this region for I think 30 or 40 years. So they gave me a recommended rate schedule and I didn't agree with it.

So I gave them mine and it was a little slow, and we ended up with a kind of happy medium. And I gotta tell you, I think people are checking in and out the same day. Um, the hip seasons can be fall and spring and fall can be a little different. Like right now I'm sitting in my home. It's not rented. Why? I don't know.

But it was this weekend and people are checking in Friday and that'll be my last rental of the season. I shut down here. October 31st would be my cutoff date. 

Mike: Oh really? Why, it's just like a, like a no man's land up there?

Nicole: I have a three season water system. 

Mike: I see. 

Nicole: So, not a summer only water system, a three season water system.

So you really need to have your water off by the end of October or you're gonna start getting some freeze problems. 

Mike: I see. 

Nicole: And then my management company won't let me rent past the middle of November anyway because of my road. 

Mike: Oh, I see. Gotcha, gotcha. 

Nicole: I'm very remote. Um, you drive through a working vineyard on a dirt road to get to my road.

4. Rental Success & Guest Feedback

Nicole: Once you get to my section of my road, it is one lane. There are three severe switchbacks and it's steep. 

 So getting materials down here, that was another thing, getting the materials, being the scale to be able to get them down the road, it was great.

Mike: Yeah. Gotcha. You really wanna shut it down by the 31st, like there's no way we could do like a video shoot there on like the weekend of the ninth? 

Nicole: Probably not 

Mike: Okay. No, no worries. No worries, no worries. 

Nicole: Yeah, I don't wanna chance it, it's not worth it.

Yeah. It's not worth damaging my equipment. 

Mike: Understood. Understood. So like on the months that you've been operating as a short term rental, have you been cashflow positive in those months? 

Nicole: 100%. 

Mike: Oh, amazing. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Mike: Huzzah! Good for you! 

Nicole: 100%. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. 

Mike: Sick. Okay, great. Yeah. Next question.

Of the people who've stayed at the property, in this building, have they shared any feedback on it? Like are there any fun stories? 

Nicole: Yeah, so we were getting a lot of five star reviews. My management company does VRBO and their site, I've opted not to be on Airbnb, just 'cause I like the age requirements on VRBO.

And I think the only negative feedback has been the sulfur in the water, which again was something that really surprised me.

5. Reflections & Advice

Nicole: In fact, it surprised my well digger, it surprised my con- I mean, everyone I've talked to is, was really shocked. It's pretty normal for there to be sulfur in the water off lake, so we'll be dealing with that in the off season.

We'll be installing a full filtration system. 

Mike: Gotcha, gotcha. That's, that's really great to hear and congratulations on the success of the project. 

Nicole: Yeah, it's amazing, better than I thought. Yeah. 

Mike: Amazing, amazing, amazing. So if a friend of yours right, was thinking about building their own DEN home, what would you tell 'em? Do you have any words of wisdom? 

Nicole: I would tell them to do it. Absolutely. I would just say make sure that you know, the contractor. That you vetted them. Um, I guess it's my understanding that you're offering to, you know, create that union from some of your customers to actual... having them get a contractor through you also. Is that true? 

Mike: Yeah. We just recently launched, this past year, an online platform that enables someone to view their plans directly in the browser, right? You can also invite project collaborators, you know, into your account. You can like, draw on top of the plans, like within the application.

And request customizations directly from the app. Also part of our service offering now includes us interviewing contractors on the customer's behalf. So we have like a quick kind of checklist process that we go through right, to like validate whether or not the contractor is good or not. And then the goal for us is to essentially give our customers two vetted recommendations for their project at the end of that process.

Nicole: Yeah, see that goes a really long way. I mean, as someone who's been in the real estate business for a long time, I've been screwed over. Quite a few times by contractors, whether they take the money and run or they're not qualified to do the quality of work that they led you to believe that they were able to do, and you have to fire them and start over and bring in someone different.

I think that's like the number one thing for anyone that wants to build is to make sure they find the right contractor. I think. I mean, know, having the plans, you know, I don't wanna call it canned plans, but having like a ready to eat menu is, takes so much outta the whole process that's helpful for someone.

So I think for the non-experienced person looking to build a home for themselves, the DEN thing is great. You know, it's, it's a meal plan. 

Mike: Yeah. Perfect, perfect. 

If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about the whole process, what would it be? 

Nicole: Oh, wow.

That's a really, really good question.

I would've liked for it to cost less. It's expensive to build up here. I mean, I don't think anything about the build. It went really smoothly. I was very happy with my contractor. I liked what I picked as far as finishes went. I think there was a little confusion on the kitchen dimensions, and it might have been me, I'm like kind of dyslexic, so I sometimes there's something right in front of my face and I just don't see it and it's too late.

I actually really, other than budgeting a little higher, I don't think I would've changed anything. I will say that, and I think that the general public should be made aware that trapezoid windows, if you're in a situation where you need to have shades or a window treatment. Do not build with trapezoid windows.

This is my second build building with them. I said after the first build, I would never do it again. I did it again anyway because they're so fabulous. But I faced full west, I get direct sun. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Nicole: And I have to have motorized shades or you just die. 

Mike: Do you wanna plug the shade company? What shade company did you use? 

Nicole: So you cannot, as a consumer, buy directly from this company, which is called Draper, I believe.

And I had to go through an interior decorator and I'm sure the markup was ridiculous. I'm sure your garden variety, Lowe's and Home Depot have this stuff, but like I didn't trust that they would come out and measure properly. And so for both of the houses I have, I had to get these ridiculous shades, which you could put a kid through college.

Mike: I've got two more questions for you, Nicole. 

Nicole: So that might be the one I would change.

Mike: Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. So two more questions. Two more questions. What is your favorite space or room in this particular DEN?

Nicole: Oh, the loft. Absolutely. There's something about when you walk upstairs, at least in the setting I'm in and it's just like your own private paradise up there. Yeah. I have the rear wall tongue and groove, and I pickle wash that. So it's like a milky white, very translucent.

And I have white bedding and a white iron bed and a white leather reading chair and just it's- and white antler lamp and it's just minimal. And you look out through that slatted wall to the lake, I can see clear across the lake. Right now it's fall. So it's just peace and serenity up there.

Absolutely. You can do a little yoga up there. You can read a book. You don't have to get outta bed. 

Mike: Amazing. 

Nicole: Yeah. What did you think I was gonna say? 

Mike: I thought maybe the room that you're sitting in, actually, the living room.

The great room. 

Nicole: Oh 

Mike: yeah. 

Nicole: The outdoor deck would be my second. 

Mike: Awesome. 

Nicole: Yeah, go ahead.

Mike: So, what advice would you give to someone who is using new construction like this, as an investment strategy, right? From a purely investment perspective, you know, like, what would you tell someone who wants to build something net new as a way to build out their portfolio? 

Nicole: For me, that's what I'm doing. So I sold all my rentals in Philadelphia and just started building up here. I love the short term vacation rental market, really just works for me.

Every investor has their different financial model. You know, if you're taking out a loan to do this, the numbers may or may not work for you. they work for me. I refinanced something and took cash out to build this. So I kind of self-financed, but that other rental is more than covering it's nut.

So I just think that budgeting, if the numbers work for you, you have to know your rental market. You can't just say. You know, 'I'm gonna get this much rent because my house is so much nicer than everybody else's'. It's true that being a niche within a market is gonna get you more money.

Both of my rentals here are a different style and a little more ahead of the curve in this area. But the area's catching up, we're seeing more and more Scandinavian design. We're seeing more and more modern, people are getting away from the puffy pillowy sofa and doily crowd, you know, it's changing and evolving, so I just happen to be a few years ahead of that curve.

But I'm not gonna get double because my house is that much cooler. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Nicole: So just know your market and don't be too egotistical. 

Mike: Yeah. Cool. That's great advice. Awesome. We're gonna end it there. Thank you so much, Nicole. 

Nicole: Awesome. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah.