El Osito Bnb: Devin & Kevin build a DEN

I've got a good one for you guys today! Join Devin & Kevin (I know, quite the rhyme scheme they've got going on) & me while we recount D&K's experience as novice builders building a DEN in Washington state. Our conversation spans their favorite and least favorite aspects of construction, and they share their biggest takeaways, as well as what they might do differently next time. See El Osito's Airbnb page here, as well as their IG here. 

1. Introduction & Background

Mike: All right. So let's start with some context. Who are you guys? What DEN design did you build and where did you build it?

Devin: I'm Devin. 

Kevin: And, uh, I'm Kevin. We built in Ashford, Washington, which is, widely known as the town right outside Mount Rainier. It's on the west side, right outside the main gate entrance there.

And we built a Modern Alpine Cabin out there, which is being pretty awesome. Yeah, we love it out there. 

2. Climbing Mount Rainier & Outdoor Adventures

Mike: Hell yeah. Fun fact, uh, I have summited Mount Rainier. Who here has summited? 

Kevin: I have last- 

Devin: We did it in one day. 

Kevin: Yeah. 

I'm, uh, yeah, I enjoy the sufferings, so yeah, 

Mike: I did it in one day also.

Kevin: Yeah. I mean, how is it man? Right. 

Mike: Oh man, I was, I was like working at a company at the time and they like interviewed me about the adventure. And I honestly think as long as you train beforehand, like whether or not you make it up and down is determined in the weeks prior, you know, like, and it's like, if you're in good shape, you can just do it.

Kevin: It took us more time to come down than it did to go up. So that's about how...

about how I was feeling by the end of it. So that was fun. 

Mike: I had trained like a bunch. I was like in really good shape. You know, I was like running like half marathons prior to going up there.

'Cause I had no idea what like, you know, big elevation mountaineering was like. And I was like, you know, I was like feeling pretty cocky. And I remember at base camp, I was like, 'well, I'm going to take a Rainier beer up and drink it on the summit'. And the guide, the guide is like, 'no, you're not'. I was like, 'fuck you, you know, I'm like, I'm going to crush this'. And of course, like I get up to the summit and I had, yeah, I'd never done it. Like I'd never done like pressure breathing as a technique or anything like that. And I was feeling pretty shit, um, like two sips of the beer. And then I poured the rest out and I was like, 'see, I kind of did it'.

And he's like, 'that doesn't count'. I was like, 'I'll be back'. 

Kevin: Yeah, we did, um, we did Mount Hood and our friend brought, imagine just the heaviest IPA you can imagine, and we drank those and, um, anyway, we, oh, we talked about it a lot. We're like, I don't think I've ever had one beer hit me as hard as an IPA.

Yeah, that was, that was funny, but anywho, yeah, that's cool, man. 

3. The Story Behind Their Build

Mike: That's awesome. So when you guys started dating, uh, and you were like, wait, our first names rhyme, like what did you guys do with that? 

Kevin: Oh, I mean, it is the worst. I mean, not the worst, but you know what I mean? It's like, Oh God... 

Devin: I think it's funny. 

Kevin: Yeah, it's funny. 

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, 

Devin: I like that it's spelled the same.

Kevin: It's spelled the same, too. 

Mike: It's amazing, actually. 

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, for sure, I mean, definitely, like, first time you meet each other type talking points. Yeah, it's funny. 

Devin: Well, actually, when he first met me, he thought my name was Danielle, and I was like, excuse me, my name is Devin.

I wanted to be like, 'it rhymes with your name. Like, how did that not register when like your guys, you know, friends told me or told them about me'. But anyway, yeah. 

Kevin: You don't know me, but I was super confident too. I was like, 'what's up, Danielle? Great to meet you'. And then it was like- 

Devin: No, name's Devin, but nice to meet you too.

Mike: Amazing.

Devin: It obviously all worked out. 

Mike: Clearly, clearly! I mean, yeah, that's amazing. And so, um, yeah, now you guys are property owners. Like this is, you know, it's incredible. It's an incredible story. 

4. Why They Chose DEN & How They Got Started

Mike: So back to the project. You know, for folks listening into the podcast, it's Monday morning. All right.

It's Monday morning on the East Coast. It's Monday morning on the West Coast. We're just trying to have some fun with it. But tell us a little bit about, uh, what inspired this project. 

Kevin: Yeah. So, um, we're both transplants. Devin's from Maryland, I'm from Illinois, originally, and, we call ourselves transplants to the Pacific Northwest here.

And we like, love all the mountain things. We're, you know, those people, we're annoying about it, you know, whatever, we spend all our time there. We dream about spendin' all our time there. And we were kind of on a career change. And we thought like, 'if not now, when?' type thing, you know, we should get around to building a house in one of these mountain zones out here.

So up in the Pacific Northwest, like Colorado and other places have these massive resort towns, you know, like Breckenridge and Vail, etc. Uh, Jackson Hole. You can keep going on. But up here there's no real, like, massive ski or outdoor, like, resort resort areas. There's a bunch of zones, like, up in the Baker Zone, Snoqualmie, Eastern Washington, like, Leavenworth and things like that.

On the west side, up in the Olympics, they have Port Angeles and Hood Sport. And so we- and then there's, of course, Mount Rainier. 

Devin: And Cascades. 

Kevin: And the whole Cascade corridor there just has all these really cool mountain towns. And so we like, no joke, like circle areas and how we got into it is we were like, 'hey, let's just try and buy a cabin'.

Originally we just wanted to buy a cabin to be in the mountains more. And then -side note, me and Dev, I bet of people who are building homes, we know probably the least of...we are the, I mean, we're like... you know about the average bear here so far as being handy but like we know so little about building stuff and I think it was just like googling I found out 'wait you can use the equity you have in land as like a down payment on your construction!'

Like we had no idea. Like we were the beginners of beginners and the algorithm somehow found us and we were like, 'dude, DEN Outdoors. Let's get these plans. Let's find a little piece of land'. So. Like forget finding a home because it was too much at that time. And we were like, 'let's just find a piece of land. Like we have that money and we can build a house and we'll just like figure it out'. 

And no joke, DEN Outdoors had the coolest, [most] aesthetically pleasing designs. And we were like, 'hey, let's just get a piece of land. Let's, you know, get designs. We'll find a builder. We'll figure out the rest. Like YouTube can teach you a lot. And let's just crush that'. 

That's kind of how we got into it. We just were looking for land in different zones and it just boom, one of them in Ashford, Washington popped up, our price range, exactly what we wanted, and we were like, 'Hey, if not now, when? Let's just buy this thing and give it a crack'.

5. The Building Process: What They Loved

Mike: Amazing. I mean, you guys have achieved what so few can, right? Which is like a bucket list item: building your house. I think, you know, what we try to do is we try to portray the process of construction as realistically as possible, right. And, you know, having done tens of these interviews at this point, like everyone's like, 'well, there are definitely challenges, but, you know, in the end, it was like, totally worth it'.

Right? So let's, let's talk a little bit about that. What was your favorite part of the building experience? 

Devin: I guess, seeing it. Right? Over times, like, you know, in a month, how quickly they can build and how quickly they can put stuff up. But definitely seeing the end and seeing [it], like, get painted and, you know, like the more aesthetically pleasing things, the windows getting put in the doors, um, things like that [were] kind of exciting.

But what about you, Kev? 

Kevin: It would probably change if we built multiple homes, but for the first home, like, I cannot stress enough how little we knew at the beginning of the process. Maybe just because it was the first time I was like, 'Whoa, this is cool. Like, what actually electrical and plumbing and utilities putting into a building [looks] like'.

Again, um, not taking away from home builders by no means. What I'm saying is, it's still a very complex process. What I'm saying is like, I was surprised at how daunting I thought it was to begin with. And again, we didn't build it ourselves. We had a general contractor, but even then, like my favorite part was thinking, man, this is actually everything that goes into a home.

I've always wondered this. And then of course the final product when it's... you know, the county allows you to actually move into it and actually inhabit that. I thought that was a cool part, of course, but like, I guess, um, yeah, seeing what can go into a home. I thought that was super cool. Yeah, 

Mike: That's cool. Yeah.

I mean, that's a really interesting insight. So I think, you know, we've heard from folks in the past, I would say like thematically, like most people love to just like, see the progress, you know, they're just like, 'wow, it's like actually coming together, you know, it's like foundation, framing, sheathing...', you know, and like people get super psyched to see the project, you know, mature and evolve over time.

But Kevin, I love that insight also. I think, like having done this a bunch of times, it's like building a home can be quite straightforward. You know, we try to map out a process that's rational and methodical. You know, our whole thesis for the business really was like; 'if we can just give people really great specifications, they can use those to build a great relationship with their builder and -builders know how to build- you know, and it's a fixed quantity. It's like a fixed scope of things, you know, and they've like done it time and time again.

Um, so yeah, so I really love that observation of just like- 

Kevin: That's the coolest part of this whole process, I guess, to maybe refine the question. Cause you know, we're just going on the fly here. But yeah, it is not as daunting as it may seem. I don't know about you, but like growing up, like me and Devin, like people who build these homes off plans.

It's like, 'okay, that's for another type of person. You know, that's not us in our early thirties on a career change'. It's like, 'no, this is very doable, especially with the amount that's on the internet now, you're just a Google search away from at least being able to talk the talk and ask the right questions.

I think that was also a very important part of the process; knowing the questions to ask. And again, you're just a Google search away or just asking somebody those things. Um, so yeah, that was the coolest part when I talked to my friends about it, I get really excited about it.

You know, like, 'you know me well, man. Like, you knew me in college. You knew me growing up, man. Like if I can do it, you can do it' type thing. You know, it's not as daunting. I don't know. 

Mike: That's awesome. 

I've spent so much time with prospects and customers and that's pretty much our core message.

It's like, 'you can do this. If you want to do this, like, you can totally do this. Um, and you know, this interview series that we're doing is for precisely that reason; to just show people that, you know, there's a bunch of normal folks who really like cool design, you know, who like the mountains or like the lakes or wherever, wherever it is that you like and, you know, wanted a cool house there.

6. Life in the Cabin & Favorite Features

So let's turn the corner. What was your least favorite experience of building this house? 

Devin: My least favorite was not knowing a lot of like the terms and just not being comfortable with how to build because, obviously it was our first time. For example, we had, um... what is it? The heat, the heater thing, the breaker and our contractor had it in the position that it should have gone in.

Okay. But then he asked me and he was like, 'so do you want it there? Do you want it there?' And. In my head, I thought the breaker was only going to be on the inside of the home. I didn't know that it actually shows on the outside of the home. So anyway, I ended up putting it on the front of the house.

So now when you drive up it's like, you know, ugly and right there. Obviously not everybody notices it, but I do. And I am like 'why did I do that? Like he had it on the side of the house!' But I thought to myself as I walked in the door I was like, 'oh well if you walk in you can see it right as, you know, you walk in the door and we would like it on the left side', (which is the front of the house) and I like kick myself all the time because I'm like, my contractor should have told me like, 'oh, it goes on the outside', but he doesn't know that I don't know that because that's a pretty basic thing to know, right?

'Devin should know that!', but I didn't know that. So that was my one biggest gripe. And it's a very small one. And it's just lack of not knowing [what I] now know. 

Mike: And then the breaker panel. So the breaker panel on the inside, my trick is I always like put a piece of art over it. 

Devin: Oh, we did. We did. 

Mike: Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. I see. You got the whole thing on the outside. That's like, 'oh..', yes. 

Devin: Yeah, that's the pits, but it's okay.

Kevin: Least favorite part... um, I mean, to be clear, at no point were we like, 'we're done with this, you know, but we're so far in, we're just going to keep going'. Like, it was never like that.

But I think the kind of, the... stressors were... Well, one, we said after it took us maybe from buying the land to fully being ready to go like nine months or eight months, but anyway, it was like a daily thing, because it was our first time, right? So it was like a daily, in addition to our jobs, you know, you're researching or doing extra paperwork and that maybe a frustrating part of it.

I kind of mentioned it originally, but it's the questions that you don't know to ask. And, um, I don't know. We initially too, with our builder, we're like, 'hey, man, we don't know anything'. He's like, 'yeah, right on. You guys are first time builders. You don't know anything'. And then it took like 4 months for him to be really like, 'okay, these guys really know like nothing'.

And like, at one point, I remember he was like, 'all right. We're going to start the rough-in'... like that is a day one term for like anyone. And we were like, 'cool, the rough-in, like, what is this? Some sort of like builders initiate, like, what is this thing?' But, um, I don't know. That's just one example.

At one point in time, we had almost a wall being built, like in a spot. 

Devin: On the loft. Wow. Okay. They were gonna, literally cover the entire loft with a wall. 

Kevin: Yeah, you know, DEN Outdoors, you're the dude for DEN Outdoors. So the Modern Alpine Cabin, like the loft, right? 

Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Kevin: The hallmark piece of this design. 

Mike: Yes! 

Kevin: I come in, I'm like, 'hey, what's up?'

By the way, our builder is the man. Okay. This guy, I want to be very clear here. It was- 

Mike: You want to plug the builder really fast? 

Kevin: Yeah. Dave Wilson, Cherry Creek Construction, this guy down in Packwood. He's phenomenal. He's the man. Okay. But, we're just. It literally... like at one point he's like 'no you guys aren't bad. You just don't don't have any idea about what any of this is'... anyway, so the story is, we come in, we don't know how to read plans, we're just like 'look at the pictures man. Look at DEN Outdoors, like look at these pictures, make it look like that' Well, um, yeah, the engineer put literally a wall where the loft is, right?

Like the hallmark piece of this design. And I came in, I'm like, 'Dave, hey, uh, why is that guy framing up a wall in the loft?' And he's like, 'well, if you look at your plans, Kevin', and I was like, 'Oh no'. And so that was like, 

Mike: There's no, there's no like wall in the loft. 

Kevin: We redrew it with an architect. 

Devin: They had like a miscommunication on their drawing. 

[We] can't read those. So... 

Kevin: Again, like for build number two, we have, I wrote like a whole document. For anybody who's just like, you know, a rock eater like me who might want to build a home someday and I would like built- 

Mike: Hey, can you send us that document? 

Kevin: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's literally like, like 'how to find land', you know, like, look, it's like step one.

So I wrote all these things because I was like, man, if I knew, you know, four months ago, if I knew to maybe ask, I mean... And after that event, the wall event, we had a meeting. And we were like, 'are there electrical outlets getting put in this house?' And our builders are like, 'are you kidding me right now?'

We're like, 'all right, we didn't know walls were getting built. So like, we're trying to make sure...', like, it was, uh...

Devin: Yeah... 

Kevin: It was really funny. But anyway, that's just one of them. That's a really long way of saying the hardest part of this project was me frustrating myself because I didn't know the questions to ask cause I'm just a knucklehead.

Yeah. 

Mike: That's awesome. So, we're just for some like background here, right? You guys said that you guys are in the midst of a career shift, right? What do you guys do for a living? 

Devin: I'm an attorney and then, um, Kevin's the career shift. 

Kevin: Yeah, I was in the army a while and then I got out and so, yeah, and then we were just like, 'all right, I'm getting out of the army. Dev was just starting her law career. We're like, let's do the cabin. You know, this is a good inflection point in life. We're on. Yeah. Large changes in our life. Let's try and sink a bunch of money into a house and put ourselves...' no, I'm just kidding. But anyway, yeah, that was, uh, that was the impetus behind it.

Mike: Yeah. You guys are amazing. I really love it. You have like a tremendous appetite for risk and adventure. I really, really love... I mean, I'm a startup founder. I'm like, I feel like I'm, I'm right in the same head space, you know? 

Kevin: Yeah. 

Mike: That's awesome. So, so now that the thing is built, right?

Uh, and you've had a chance to enjoy it. What's your favorite spot in the house, you know, like where you're like, 'this was like totally worth it'

Devin: Oh, our house is so cute and tiny. I love every part of our little house. I... probably by the windows. I love... being in the loft is wonderful.

We put a cool, like customized railing. So there's like mountains on it. So it's like kind of cool when you are up in the loft and you can see out the windows. I'm a huge fan of the window. So I'd say anywhere. In like the kitchen or living room, but we also have a deck. I don't know if that's part of the plan.

Is it part of the deck or instead of the wraparound, we just made it a big deck. Anyway, so it's just nice to be on the deck with the big windows. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. The deck counts. That's cool. Like either inside or right outside, you know? 

Devin: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Devin: I probably just named every part of the home, but what about you?

Kevin: It'd probably be the same. I, I like cooking a lot and we kinda like how the kitchen orients in ours, how it orients towards the vaulted, uh windows and stuff, but the windows I think are the... that makes it. 

Devin: Yeah. 

Kevin: It's incredible. Yeah. 

Mike: Nice, nice. What's your favorite part of the property itself?

Are there any remarkable features of the property? 

Devin: What's cool about it is we have a huge elk herd that comes through. So, um, 

Mike: Elks? 

Devin: Yeah, we have elks. 

Mike: Elk herd?! 

Devin: Yeah, like 30 or 50. I swear. It's so cool. 

Kevin: Yeah, they were hanging out there on top of our logs, like, 'where they at, man?'

Mike: So cool! 

Actually, hold on, hold on. This is like an interview first. People are always like 'well, I really like the babbling brook' or like, you know, something like that. But like no one, no one has done the elk herd or like, or yeah, like animal flex. That is amazing. 

Kevin: Yeah, we got like bulls on our property, so we're lucky, 'cause we sit on a quarter acre and it's like a quarter acre going on 50 acres. So what happens is our property backs up to a giant wetland and on the far side is a home and they [the neighbors] own all of it and they fenced it off and it's their property. But the thing is, maybe a quarter mile from us is just a giant uninhabitable bog.

And what that means is we are able to, we oriented our home with the vaulted ceilings and all that. Again, we're just a little baby quarter acre, but we back up to it. So when you're sitting on the deck and stuff, very frequently the elk herd will show up. And so, yeah, we get really lucky. So we're like a quarter acre going on 50. We're really lucky. My tips to anybody buying land. Again, we had no idea when we bought it, we were like, 'oh great, we'll have a quarter acre. And then we're like, 'oh...', but like the favorite part of the house and everything, the house is incredible.

But like part of the property. Like, we got really lucky where we're situated. 

Mike: Yeah, that's amazing. 

Devin: And deer will come through. 

Kevin: Yeah, deer and everything. 

Devin: The elk are cool. 

Mike: That is so cool. That is so cool. So do you use the house? I mean, you mentioned that you guys love the mountains, but like, do you use the house as like, just like your base camp for hikes and stuff like that?

Like what's, you know, what do you use it for? 

Devin: Kev would call it glamping. He, no, we go out and tent if we're going out. So, um, we've Airbnb'd it to obviously get the mortgage paid and all that kind of stuff. Um, so we, we only really stay there to do like landscaping and do more work on the property.

Um, we haven't used it as our base camp yet, which we should. 

Kevin: We went hunting, my dad came out, we went hunting, we stayed in there for a bunch of days. We initially bought this just kind of, again, we've been here about 10 years now and we've been to all the different mountain zones. So that's why we were looking initially 'cause we're like, 'hey, let's just buy something that we can hold on to'.

And of course... Airbnb and other short term rental websites. That's a medium through which we can cover our mortgage just cause we're normal human beings. But yeah, like, we try to use it whenever there aren't guests there. Like we, we love the place of course. 

Mike: Nice. Nice. 

And then, separately, when you guys go camping, are you like a super ultra light guy, Kevin?

Or are you like, are you just like 'I was in the military. I'm just gonna have like a heavy ass nylon tent. I don't care'. 

Devin: Yep, he literally will take a foldable table with us. We're going up to like really high elevation. I would never do [that]. But he is, yeah, packs everything under the sun because he wants to be comfortable.

His bag, what is it, an 80 liter? A 100 litre- 

Kevin: It's like 100. 

Devin: It's like a, it's a 110 liter bag... backpack. And he shoves everything in there. 

Mike: Oh, man. 

Devin: Yeah, it's insane. And- 

Mike: You've got like a sherpa. Like-

Devin: Yeah, I know. It's amazing. I'm just like, 'your poor back! When we're like, you know, old, you're gonna, we're gonna, I [won't] be pushing you around!'

Kevin: I say, 'hey, if it's ever too heavy, I just need to get in better shape'. But it's a bonanza when we get to where we're going. It's a bonanza because we got everything we need. Yeah, it's always fun. 

Mike: Yeah. One time I went hiking in the Swiss Alps. I'm like, I go hiking like a lot by myself, right? So I'm like, I have like everything on my back.

So I'm like, I'm more on the ultralight end of the spectrum. And I go hiking in the Swiss Alps and I end up at this camp with like, you know, a bunch of people from Zurich and I like break out my dehydrated food and they were just like, 'what the hell is that?' They're like, 'what are you doing?' And I'm like, 'well, I didn't know that you guys were gonna be here. Like, I didn't know any of this was gonna be here. You know, like, I was just trying to make sure I was well fed'. And they were like, 'just throw it away, we're making risotto'. 

Devin: Oh my god, that's amazing. 

Mike: And shit, it was like, they had this like, full course meal. And we were like, high, we were up in the mountains, you know?

I was like, 'wow, I really appreciate, like, you know, that type of flex, where it's like, you just bring everything with you'. 

Devin: For sure, no, that is, uh, that's amazing. That's hilarious. 

7. Renting on Airbnb: Challenges & Wins

Mike: Okay, back to DEN, back to DEN. You guys are renting this on Airbnb, how is that going for you? 

Devin: It's good!

I love it, because I wouldn't be able to do it without a platform like Airbnb, just because I wouldn't be able to get, you know, any traction. So that is really nice to have. I would say it's a little stressful, just because I worry about people not enjoying their time.

And I'm worried about like, you know, the five star situation. So that's like the most, um, painstaking, because I feel like you can really get donked and we have a couple cabins in our neighborhood that also do Airbnbs and I've seen some of their 4 stars, 3 stars, and I'm just like, 'that's just like really mean to do'.

So I worry for the day that we get like several. We do have one 4 star, but, um, that's the most stressful for me. 

Mike: Wait, four star, but Airbnb has a 5 star rating scale, right? 

Devin: Exactly. 

Mike: Four stars. What? Like [that's] abject failure? Come on. 

Devin: Yes, because you can get taken off the first page, and then if you get, it's like 3, 4 stars under like a hundred reviews, you're like low, like a 4 points.

Well, you want to have like, like a-

Mike: 4.87? 

Devin: Yeah. And then you're like donked off and it's terrible. It's terrible. So now I tell everybody who stays at Airbnb, like, please, if you don't have a good time, then just don't review them unless it's horrible. Like, the worst scenario is [to] give them a 4 star. 

Mike: But like from an occupancy perspective, how are you guys doing?Is the cabin booked out? 

Devin: Yeah. 

Mike: Amazing. Amazing. 

Devin: Yeah, it is. 

Kevin: Yeah, we were really lucky. Actually, what's really cool about DEN Outdoors. So when we were looking into it, you guys made a YouTube video a long time ago with this guy Ryan Southard, down in Packwood, Washington. He built the exact cabins we wanted and -you don't know me too well, but like, I'm a really gregarious guy- and I just shot him an email and I was like, Hey, like- 

Mike: Kevin, I've known you for like, 20 minutes now, 23 minutes. And gregarious guy is like, your calling card. 

Kevin: Hey, we'll take it then! We'll take it then. Everybody can know I'm, you know, super outgoing, but anyway - I hit up Ryan, just sent an email into the ether.

And he was like, 'come on down!' So we actually looked at the exact cabin, like in real life. And it was only because you guys made a YouTube video out of it like years ago and that was super cool. But yeah, I don't know.... 

Oh yeah. So we talked to Ryan before we ever built this thing and we're like, you know, talking about being booked out and how does it matter?

Like, 'how do people enjoy your cabin? What do they want more from it?' He was an open book. He just told us everything. 

Devin: He was really nice. 

Kevin: So before we even broke ground, we kind of had an aspect of like, 'okay, you know, this is, this is how well it will do financially'. Again, like mainly we wanted to hold onto this for personal reasons.

And then we started looking at, you know, the, whatever, how far it could book out and how much you could make on it, and we're like, 'okay, this is substantial'. So we were, you know, really happy about that, but I think that's one thing to be said. Because of what you guys do, you know, media wise -marketing wise- like we, we were able to connect with someone who had been featured by you guys- 

Devin: In our area- 

Kevin: In our area. And he was like, super, just like me, you know, we just connected and he really helped us out through the build. Really. 

Mike: Oh, that's amazing. That's really good to hear. Yeah. Yeah, at this point, it's like, DEN has been around for almost five years and like there's a DEN...

I think the only two places in the United States where we don't have a DEN -as far as I know- are Hawaii and Alaska. 

Devin: Oh, wow. 

Mike: Yeah. And like, every time we get someone who writes in from either state, I'm like, 'you can do it!' I'm like, like, 'come on, there's only two [states] left!'

Devin: Oh, that'd be cool. 

Mike: Yeah, that's so awesome to hear that, you know, another DEN builder hooked you guys up.

That's cool. I'm just trying to think now. I think I think we pretty much covered it, all right.

8. Advice for Future Builders

Mike: Oh, I've got one last question. 

If you had a friend who wanted to pursue this project and use a DEN design, what type of advice would you give them? 

Devin: I would tell them to use it, but beware of where they're building it.

There might be permitting issues. Like for us, we totally wanted to use the exact DEN design, but because of where we're at, it was required that we had a bedroom on the first floor with a closet. So we had to just, you know, do a tweak and make a small bedroom on the first floor, but not being like... stuck to the exact design. The [general] idea of the design will eventually come out. You know, as long as you're okay with permitting requirements and things like that. But yeah, it's definitely a great... jumpstart. It's a great place to start because when you know what you want, you can just point at a picture if you're confused about, you know, the architect or engineer drawings, just going back to like, 'hey, this is what the vision is', is a great way to start and have a little bit of confidence too.

Kevin: Yeah, I'd say so too. 

Devin: What advice would you give? 

Kevin: Um, I was trying to think, I mean, DEN outdoors gave us a tremendous amount of inspiration, because everybody's going to want something just a little bit different, right? Like you guys have amazing plans, but as an example, we didn't use the wraparound deck of the design.

We just put all that square footage right on the back end. Okay. So use the base DEN design. Um, I think we got the full plans and then you can use that as inspiration to kind of... we moved the kitchen around and stuff. We customized it with the architect and engineer after that. But if someone wanted to use DEN I'd say between DEN and youtube, you could get to like 90 percent and then like the last remaining questions are the stuff that like... the super technical stuff that you're just not going to know.

I'd tell them to, yeah, just trust in your gut that, 'hey, you can fully do this', maybe listen to a bunch of podcasts of normal human beings, like me and Devin, who did it. And it's like, not that challenging, but... yeah. 

10. Finding the Right Builder

Mike: Awesome. One last, last question, right?

How did you know that you found the right builder? Like what advice would you give, you know, in terms of like, in terms of just like interviewing, and aligning to the right builder. 

Devin: I'll leave that to Kev cause he did that, but also just, it's helpful to have Kev's personality because people just like him and stuff.

So from what I know is I believe he went to the bank and he was asking around and... essentially just doing his thing and then- 

Kevin: Check it out. I talk too much. All right. And I have no fear of talking. So what happened was I asked, man, I asked, I'm the kid in class, you know, that asks all those questions.

Devin: And I'm the one who's like, 'oh, shut up'. 

Kevin: And I'm like, asking a really stupid question. And everyone's like, is this kid serious? I was that guy. Imagine that, but like building a home, but finding a builder. This is what I tell all my friends. This is what I wrote in that document. 

Most of these mountain towns where people are going to be building DENs, that's rural America, okay?

You're going to be up in the mountains very often. So there's going to be small banks and everybody knows each other. So I went to all those banks. I was like, who are the people, who are the builders doing the most work, who are paying you on time, who have the best reputations? And there was a guy's name - several different people's names, [including] our builder's name, came up frequently.

So we just hit them up and then Dave Wilson [was] very responsive. I think everyone will say that like, minus, you know, you could have the best builder in the world, but if they don't respond to your emails or your texts, especially being first timers, right? Like you don't know anything. You just want to be comforted sometimes, right?

You just want that. So the fact that he hit me right back, he was the most responsive builder and he had a tremendous reputation with all the local banks. Was the best way for us to vet the vet, our guy beyond, you know, the Google reviews and all that stuff. Got it. Got it. And like all the local recommendations, everybody has a guy, right?

Everybody has a friend. I would say, don't trust the homie hookup. I always tell my friends, don't trust the homie hookup, go straight to the banks. Cause they're the people looking at the money. Right. Who is doing the most work and who's paying you on time? And, um, anyway, Dave, among a couple other people, hit us back.

And Dave just was so consistent with his communication. He was just right on top of it. And that worked well. That worked so well for us. Just because, again, like, we had so many dumb questions. And Dave had such patience [with] us. He was so perfect. But yeah, that's the best way. Or at least, if we were going to do it again in a completely separate place, that's how we'd do it.

Mike: Amazing, amazing advice. So yes, go to the banks, look for responsiveness and when all else fails, um, just get yourself a Kevin. 

Devin: Yeah, exactly. 

Mike: Awesome. Well guys, thanks so much for joining me on a Monday morning, uh, on behalf of the whole team at DEN, thanks again. You guys rock, the project looks incredible and yeah, I'll hit stop on the interview right here. Thanks again. 

Devin: Thank you. Yeah.