Yang x Ava x Mike

1. Meet the Builders: Ava & Yang

Mike: Awesome. Well, hello everyone. Welcome back to another DEN podcast. We're joined here today by two folks who are building a DEN in upstate New York. Please tell us who are you, which DEN Design are you building and where are you building it?

Yang: I'm Yang 

Ava: and I'm Ava. 

Yang: We are building the Outpost Plus in Saugerties. 

2. Finding DEN: Instagram, Airbnb Dreams, and Design Backgrounds

Mike: Amazing, amazing. The Outpost Plus is one of our most popular designs, and, we are about to actually launch it as a prefab product next week. So we're offering the entire building as like a panelized structure, right? And we're including the windows and doors and you're probably gonna be like, 'oh man, we wish we had that , you know, before we started this project'. But it took us a little bit of time to finally catch up, to get this thing to market. But, that's cool. What about the Outpost Plus attracted you? Or what about DEN, you know, attracted you to our process in that design?

You tell us where you wanna start.

Ava: Actually Yang was the one who found out about you guys. I had this idea about having an Airbnb sometime in the future, and we didn't know where to begin, like at first. And so Yang, I don't know how you found DEN, but -

Yang: Instagram. 

Ava: Okay. Instagram. And so he actually shared your website with me and he shared, we were looking at the Outpost at first, but then in the end we decided to go with the Outpost Plus because it's the one that came with the stairs actually.

Mike: Oh, yeah. Nice. 

Ava: Yeah.

Yang: We did some construction work on our home. A little while back and then I guess caught the bug, so to speak. And we both have design background, so we're like, 'okay, I think we can do this'. So, so, you know, we had some criteria, like Airbnb's, A-Frames modern, like stay aways, cabins, were kind of on the rise and becoming popular, especially towards the tail end of COVID.

Yeah. 

Ava: Yeah. 

Yang: So we were like, 'okay, are we a little late on this? We better rush'. DEN offered this kind of, pick and go kind of a solution. It worked out in that way and of course, outpost Plus. Is not an A-frame. 

 

Mike: Yes, it is not, you know what? It is not an A-Frame.

But from like a popularity or like an engagement perspective, it is very A-Frame esque. You know, people are like, 'Ooh, what is this like prismatic building, you know?' So, it definitely stands out in our catalog, like from a sales perspective. Also in the market, from a short term rental perspective and certainly from a curb appeal perspective.

I have to ask, right, because I am a recovering software designer, who started this company, right? What type of design work do you guys do? 

Ava: So I am a product designer. I specialize in UX and UI for- 

Mike: Oh snap. Me too. 

Ava: Oh, you -

Mike: Or formally, yes.

Yes. But that's amazing. That's amazing. 

Ava: I used to be a graphic designer and then I switched into UX and UI. 

Mike: Nice, nice. Um, so you're like a Figma Pro and now you're putting engineers out of a job because you can just like, provide like a working code, uh, you know, working code components from like everything.

Ava: Absolutely. 

Mike: That's amazing. That's amazing. Uh, and Yang how about you? 

Yang: I'm also a product designer, but, a physical product designer, so. Ava's was also putting me out of jobs. Like. 

Mike: Oh, amazing. That's so cool. That is, I am super flattered, that a UX designer, and like a tangible products designer, have selected DEN That's like high praise.

Holy shit, guys. 

Yang: Yeah, you got a great product. I mean, it stands out right away, you know? Yeah. Against other companies that offer something similar. But I mean, yeah, your catalog is incredible. Like right away. 

Ava: Yeah. I just remember seeing the Outpost for the first time and I was like, 'I've never seen anything like this before'.

Mike: Oh, that's so cool. I would say DEN attracts like more, more tasteful people, than not Right. But yeah, I'm just incredibly flattered that you guys selected us, given your backgrounds. That's, that's really super cool.

I think that the Outpost Plus, came in this like series of designs and design thinking, and you guys are obviously familiar with the Outpost that just like has the Murphy bed and like the ladder up to the loft.

And then this was like our attempt to create like more accessibility in the overall design, so that you can like, walk up to the loft like comfortably, right?

3. Customizing the Outpost Plus: Expanding and Tweaking the Design

Mike: I have a question for you guys. 'cause I was like looking at this like, incredible drone video that you guys shot of the project, which just makes it look bananas, right?

It's like the Outpost Plus like just cranked up to 11. Did you guys make the building taller by any chance? 

Yang: Okay. Okay. That's crazy that you noticed that! I guess probably as like the founder, you would find that very easy to spot. It was not easy to spot on like a 2D drawing. Because when we got your plans and we started looking at everything, 'cause I use like 3D software and I'm able to map it out and render it ahead of time and that's what we've been kind of used to.

So after mapping everything out, we said, like ' we need one foot mm-hmm. In each direction. 

Mike: Oh my goodness. I can't believe it's only one foot! Yeah. 

Yang: Need one foot in each direction because, 'oh, the couch is a little tight. Oh, the, the stairs are a little tight. Oh. Like, I wish I had this extra room in the laundry room. I wish the bathroom was a hair longer' and we based a lot of the dimensions off of our existing home, so, you know, because like it's, it's residential. It's less of a tight, confined space, I think, so that's kind of why we wanted to expand and yes, then... that cubic foot?

Yeah, it really set us off. I think it, it added a lot of complexity. 

Mike: Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. We, so we just recently, customized an Outpost Plus to go up a full five feet in the footprint dimensions, right? So instead of being 25 ft by 25 ft, it is now 30 ft by 30 ft. Right.

And like the customer that we have incorporated a kitchen Island and there's just like way more elbow room at like 30 ft by 30 ft

And like we've spent a ton of time not arguing, right, but just being like, ' is this a better version of the first cut?' It's interesting, I think that I can't blame you for wanting like a little bit of extra elbow room. Right.

I think the original 25 ft by 25 ft is like really trim, because we expected people to like, build it as like a short term rental asset. So it's like, everything you need, but nothing else. And it's like, just super, super trim. But yes, I don't blame you for going a little bit, a little bit bigger to just give yourself like a little extra elbow room.

4. Design Challenges and Ripple Effects of Customization

Mike: So you customized it, right? And then that created all these dependencies in the design that maybe you didn't fully realize. I'm guessing like, you led a large portion of the customizations project, right? Given your skillset and background, tell us a little bit about that process and some of the complexities you inadvertently encountered by opening up that can of worms. 

Yang: I think, oh man, it is like taking me down, like memory lane.

I suppose there's a lot of stuff that you inadvertently move. One thing that comes to mind is that when we are designing this place or editing it, and a lot of the stuff that we do together as a couple. We end up driving ourselves into corners.

And then the corners end up driving everything back out. So we kind of put the furniture into the virtual space and then ended up deciding we want a little more space in the bathroom. And then that single request ends up kind of creating this ripple effect that pushes the walls and the ceiling out. 

Ava: And the stairs. Yeah. 

Yang: So that particular decision ended up pushing everything out and then you start kind of placing the windows and the doors in, and then we are... again, we have this advantage of looking at this virtual item as like giants, so to speak, like from outer space.

Mike: Right, right, right. 

Yang: So we are looking at it from way far away and saying like, 'Hey, what are the proportions of the windows relative to this prism?' So we're able to make all these I guess like quick design decisions that ultimately end up being not quick executing.

It's easy to say like, 'let's do four layouts of the windows. Oh, it's, it's like a little bit further away from the seat, the rafter. Oh, it's a little bit, um. Narrower in the door opening or wider in the door opening. Let's, let's see how that proportion looks. Let's make four little mockups and decide'.

And then when it comes to calling the vendor, that's like a two week, three week, like, quoting process. 

Mike: Oh, for sure, for sure. For folks who are listening to this, we're more or less describing any thoughtful design process, right?

But like, this is like what we do internally at DEN, we're like exploring all of those options and then, you know, like, someone mixing a song, picking the best versions of it, right? And like curating down to something that feels like focused.

And something that we could deliver on, that we feel good about. But yeah, it's also great like when our starting point like inspires all of those decisions, and like gets people to a place that feels personalized to them. Like our process also affords that, which is great, like we're never too like precious about it.

We're not like, 'oh, it has to be exactly this way'. We're like, 'oh, cool. It's actually great. You know, when you can remix it yourself and make it your own and, end up with an outcome that feels personal to you'. And also it's like, clear that it started from an Outpost Plus design, right?

The original thinking is there, but also to go back to your first kind of thought, yes. It's like with some of the designs that we have, like - we have over 40 now- but it's like noticing like a new birthmark on my child, you know? I'm like, 'oh, uh, haha. I see what you've done there!'

So yeah, so it was like very easy to spot that in the drone video. But, you know, nonetheless, it's like the building looks incredible.

5. Construction Progress and Concrete Floors

Mike: So tell us, where are you at in the overall project timeline? The drone video made it seem you guys at least have the outside, pretty close to done.

Ava: So I think mostly like the exterior is done. I would say you probably just need landscaping, which is probably not gonna be anytime soon. But the interior we've had work done like with interior walls, we just got our floors done, so we got concrete floors. 

Mike: Oh, amazing. 

Yang: Well, I can't wait for you to see. It's fire! 

Ava: Heated concrete floors.

Mike: Woo! 

Ava: It's incredible. We found this super amazing guy, did amazing work. And yeah, we're, what else do we have? Oh, we have our back splashes in the bathroom are gonna be done in two weeks. I would say. So we're doing just huge, uh, tiles like for the bathroom walls, so that's just easier to clean.

What else is there? 

Yang: Funnily enough, the decorative and beautiful stuff came first and now we're like trying to cram all the electronics and stuff inside. 

Mike: Cool. 

Yang: So there's that, electrical and water I think are coming in hopefully soon too. Then it'll be essentially just finishing. If we are lucky.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah.

Do you guys have a target date in terms of when you might open? 

Yang: Yeah, we're gonna, we were gonna open in January, so that's the target date. 

Mike: I see, I see. Wait, last January or this upcoming? 

Yang: This past January. This past, okay. Yeah. 

Mike: Nice, nice. Nice. Well, you know, we've had some customers, like this one guy who's building this project, it's the Alma House on Instagram.

Like this has been like a labor of love of his, you know, it's been like going for like maybe two years now, but the thing looks like, so fire, it's like, every detail is like, so dialed in. And I'm like, 'wow, what a good job'. But he's like definitely taking his time and he's doing a lot of the work himself too.

But, yeah, there's no shame. Let's give you guys like a, not so ambitious opening date. What do you think? Like Q4 of this year? Q4? 

Yang: Yeah. Sure. Early Q4, if we're lucky. 

Mike: Early Q4. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. Maybe in time for a nice Thanksgiving stay. 

Yang: Yeah. Yeah, that'd be so good. 

Mike: That's cool. That's really cool.

6. Highs and Lows of the Build: Framing Awe and Contractor Woes

Mike: I mean, you guys are pretty far along. What's been your favorite part of the experience of building something from the ground up?

Ava: For me me it's like seeing how it started to shape up, especially when they did the framing. 'cause that's when we really saw like the structure and we didn't realize how big it was. 'cause Yang and I were thinking, 'oh, we just wanna build a small cabin'. But as soon as like the framing went up and we were inside and looking at this from below, we're like, 'oh my goodness. Like what have we built? Like this is awesome'. You know?

Just like seeing like the structure, being done I think is probably the best part for me. 

Mike: Nice. And then are your footprint dimensions are what, 26 by 26? 

Yang: Yes. 

Mike: Yeah. Oh, okay. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, even like 24 by 24, is like, that's a pretty decent sized building, you know?

It's not like a tree house, like in the woods. Yeah. 

Yang: The height is the crazy part. Like we go up essentially every weekend. We're trying our best to go every single weekend. And you know, as Ava said, it's such an interesting journey in the beginning it's dead trees and thickets. Mm-hmm.

And like this wilderness where we're getting lost in. We have this like really beautiful piece of land that we thought might have a beautiful view. But in the beginning, it's just wild stuff. Branches, whatnot. Then as the months pass and we go up and a little bit gets cleared here, and then another bit gets cleared, and then the trees kind of come down and the opening is there.

And as you said, the foundation gets poured in and then the framing is done ish. The rough framing. And we climb up on like the contractor's ladder. He's not even there, and we were just up on this kinda like empty shell looking out at like a view of a mountain now that's like, 'wow, okay. Maybe there's something here that we can be super proud of', like we like kind of carved out a little viewpoint for ourselves and that's incredible. 

Mike: Oh man, that sounds so cool. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Like I've done similar things like on this property that I have in the Catskills and we built like, a prototype of one of our earlier prefab products on that property. And I remember doing the roofing work on it and the building's pretty tall. It's like almost like 20 feet tall. And you know, I was like up on the ladder and I was like, 'oh wow. It's like the view up here is like epic'.

Being up there like for the first time, with like your own eyes and your own skull, you can kind of approximate it with a drone, but like being up there for the first time is like, really inspiring. So that's cool. I feel you guys in, in those feelings, across the journey of building something.

But yes, it's not all, unicorn and fairy dust, and good vibes. Like what have been your least favorite parts of the building experience so far? 

Ava: Go ahead. 

Yang: Go ahead. 

Ava: Um. I guess it was tough in the beginning because we had to shuffle through a couple of contractors to find the right one, and it kind of took us a long time.

'cause you never really know until they start the work. I think we just went through a couple months of dealing with some contractors that didn't work out for us and we ended up spending more money than we had thought we would. So I think that's the most challenging part in the beginning.

Mike: And did you like, hire them, have to like, have to fire them? Or did you just not even make a headway with them enough to like, even ship them a check? Like how did it, how did it go in those first few relationships? 

Ava: We had to hire them, see their work and when we weren't satisfied, we just had to look for other contractors and thankfully, we were recommended somebody by our lawyer who helps on the land and it worked out really well for us, and so we still have him as our gc and he's like introduced us to other contractors that we are currently working with right now, but. 

Mike: Awesome. Awesome. Do you wanna plug the boy that you're working with? That you like? 

Yang: Yeah. Yeah. We, we have Anthony Spadero, he's with us like, uh, as our GC. And he's like our go-to for anybody in that region who's gonna be able to get us anything like. Having somebody who is good on your side gets the ball rolling faster, and in contrast, having somebody not so great slows things down significantly.

It was quite a slog to get through those early bits without the right people in place. But then once we do find the right people, then it becomes so much easier. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. And then, um, you know, now that you guys have been through the process of finding people having to like transition, to different resources, do you guys have any tips on what to look for in a good builder?

Was there something about how Anthony communicates? Was there something about his work product? Like what is it that stands out about this relationship that has stood the test of time in your project versus the other ones? 

Yang: I'll plug another one of our contractors too.

Um, Thornhaus Construction. They did a whole chunk of the preliminary like groundwork, foundation stuff. Landscaping, yeah, landscape. Anthony then took over, as we transitioned from outside to inside.

And I think like one of the biggest things huge right away is speed of communication. In my personal professional work, I also deal with a lot of vendors and sometimes those vendors are strangers. And in this case, like our contractors at first were strangers to us.

And the speed of response is like the number one telltale factor. It's like when I call and we don't connect right away, how quickly do you get back to me? How openly are you communicating or how frequently are you communicating throughout that process as we move forward?

I think we both felt it, like when we had our first contractor and it was like, hey, you know, lots of great vibes in the beginning and then the communication starts to kind of disappear. And I was like, 'whoa, okay. This is not working'. Like if you're not gonna communicate back quickly to us, then things aren't gonna move in in general.

Luckily our contractors do that now. 

Mike: You know what? I've done enough of these to know that is definitely something that other folks have said as well. That's something that I've noticed, the velocity of communication guys, that's pretty much it.

Like if someone can answer email within like, same business day, like next business day, that is a huge benefit, you know, in a partner that's as strategic as one, you know, that's like helping you to build a house, right? And like those days add up, right? Like if it takes them a business week to get back to you, like that's a long time added to the timeline of a project as complex as building a house.

Yang: I want to add also, like it doesn't matter if it's bad news either. As a matter of fact, sometimes when the bad news comes faster, it's better so that we can resolve the issue. I hate it when like, it was really difficult to move when some other contractors would be like, ghosting you and not telling you any bad news until it's too late.

Mike: Right, right. 

Yang: That's worse. So. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. That's really, really great point. Yeah, sometimes like complexities pop up like in a, in a project like this, right? And like if all parties are made aware of it soon and, can feel as though they're part of a decision to improve that, and then can just overcome that as like a team, you know, like, great!

Those moments happen, right? I remember interviewing a customer whose builder had a death in the family, like mid-project. And like took some time off. And the customer like wasn't in a terrible rush and like, and they just stuck it out with the builder and they were just, they were happy that they did.

There was like continuity across the entire project. And I was like, 'wow, what a testament to real partnership and collaboration'. That there's like even space for this, in a project like this. But yeah. That's really cool to hear. It's so, so fun to talk to you both.

7. Advice for Future Builders: Plan Early and Communicate Fast

Mike: Let me ask you, maybe one more question before we wrap it up. If you had a friend who was attempting to do the same, what advice would you give them? 

Yang: I already know the answer to this one. There's legwork that can be done before any money is put down on the table. And we talked about this a lot.

It's like. Before the land is even purchased, and especially with DEN or like plans that are pre laid out, spend the extra money to do the planning. 'cause that actually saves so much time. Time is money down the line. 

Mike: Oh. Oh dude. Thanks for saying that.

Because like some people are like, 'ah, like we have all these free tools, right? Like, we have this data driven cost calculator Now that like gives you like a project cost forecast in your state. We try to demystify as much as possible for customers for free, honestly.

And then, people would constantly run into this like chicken versus egg problem, which is customers are like, 'well I don't wanna buy the plans unless I know how much exactly it's gonna cost'. And I'm like, 'well, you kind of have to buy the plans and talk to a local gc. And do the due diligence to find out what your exact local cost is gonna be'.

And I'm like, even when you buy the plans, it's like you're not committing to building the house yet. You know? All you're doing is committing to doing the research to build a house. Right. And if you're gonna spend like half million dollars on an asset, what's like a couple thousand dollars in research cost?

Right? To like de-risk it for yourself. But great advice. This is like one of the fundamentals of our company, honestly. It's just like equip people with the tools so that they know what they're jumping into. 

Yang: Do your prefab or like tho those packages now where you take it from start to end, do they include, like, do you have an architect or engineers on your team now?

We had to hire an engineer to work with us to make it compliant to local codes, you know? 

Mike: Yeah, totally.

So there's like two flavors of working with DEN right now. So there's the plans and the platform. And I don't even know if you guys were able to make use of the platform, that we only launched that last year.

But in that particular case, you have a set of construction documents and you have to work with a third party engineer, right? Because we're effectively selling, like a template, right? That like doesn't refer to any sort of specific local conditions, right?

Whether you buy it in like Washington or New York or Texas, it's like the same thing. And then you need to go that extra step with a third party consultant and localize it. So that's like part of the process.

In the case of the prefab products that we offer now, we have integrated engineering, right?

So we have a engineering firm that only looks at our prefab product line, right? And will engineer it to whatever factors you need in whatever state you're going and, you know, whatever climate conditions and seismic conditions, you know, you're delivering that, that building into.

With the exception of one aspect, actually; you still need a structural engineer to provide foundation engineering. Because presumably there will be a soil test and, an understanding of exactly what local code requires, based on the foundation style that our clients select for the project. But yeah, the process that you guys went through is the process that every customer up until our prefab customers has gone through to be able to implement their house.

Ava, what advice would you give to a friend? 

Ava: Like Yang said, it's just the planning head. There was a lot that could have been done in the very beginning. And you know, I think the first step that we took was to search for land.

Which I think is like what most people do, right? You look for the land first and then you build something. But there's a lot of planning that can be done and you guys already provide that in the documents that you send out. So I think just like being able to do that, like before even looking for land, because looking for land took us a couple of months, I wanna say almost like a whole year.

Mike: Oh wow. Yeah. 

Ava: That was a big chunk of it that was kind of like lost. 'Well, we could be doing this at the same time'. 

Mike: Awesome. With that, we'll end it here. On behalf of the whole DEN team, thanks for being a customer of DEN. The project looks beautiful. We can't wait to tour it, sometime in early Q4.

You heard it here. We'll see whether or not that holds true for the rest of the year. And yeah, thanks very much guys. 

Ava & Yang: Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us.