Creekside at the Esopus: Cooper x Mike

Hello everyone! Last week I was able to meet with Cooper, who built a DEN in Saugerties, NY. Join us as we run thru the build process, and Cooper's first week of operating his new DEN STR. 

Find his Airbnb page here.

1. Meet Cooper: From NYC to Upstate Builder

Mike: Welcome, everyone, to another episode of the DEN Building podcast. We are joined here by a new contestant. Please tell us who you are, what you built, and where you built it?

Cooper: Yeah. Hey everyone. First Live podcast, so this is a new experience for me. Cooper Parks.

I built the Modern Alpine, up in Saugerties, New York. So [I'm] based in New York City, and just got a place upstate just an hour and a half away from the city.

Mike: Amazing, amazing. I mean, like, you are living what many would call the New York City, kind of urbanites dream, right?

You've got a place in the city and you've got a place upstate, right? So that's incredible. And why did you choose Saugerties of all places?

Cooper: So I started doing Airbnbs a couple years ago, and was doing some research on emerging markets close to home base, which is New York, and I actually found a ton of people from Brooklyn were going up to Kingston and Saugerties and starting really cool galleries or restaurants. I'm a bit of a foodie myself, so I was like, 'oh, it's a no brainer to check it out', and [I] really just enjoyed kind of the escape from the madness that the city can be sometimes.

Mike: I take it this has been like a multi-year kind of obsession of yours in terms of visiting and understanding that market.

I know that market decently well. I lived in Rhinecliff for a couple years.

Cooper: Oh yeah!

Mike: Yeah. Right across the river from Kingston. And [I] have like rented or owned property up there for, I would say, a better part of the decade. So, still have some property in Green County.

How do you feel about that market today relative to like, let's say even three or four years ago?

Cooper: Yeah, so I'm definitely glad I got in a couple years ago. It's definitely heated up. My first Airbnb was actually in Kingston, like right off the roundabout circle there.

Mike: Oh, cool!

Cooper: And I was able to buy the place with like - I think my interest rate's like sub 2%. So it was kind of a home run. [The] market really appreciated.

So that was great. Actually, this project was a different take on... 'cause the home prices have inflated so much, I bought a little cottage, an existing like 1920s, three season cottage right on the Esopus Creek up there. And then I built the DEN as like a new modern cabin next to it, so it's technically like an auxiliary on the -

Mike: Oh, amazing!

Cooper: - property.

But I have a little compound out there. So that was my backdoor way to get around the ever increasing home prices up there.

Mike: Amazing, amazing. Are we gonna both, like, mutually shout out Kingston Wine Co? Really, really incredible wine shop in that region. Like biodynamic wines, like all that.

Are you gonna rep them?

Cooper: Yeah, a hundred percent. Have you been to Rough Draft, too?

Mike: I have not, no.

Cooper: Oh, it's the coolest coffee shop/library/bookstore/beer. They have like a ton of craft beer. So it's like, anytime of day you can go in there and it's a super cool scene.

Within uptown Kingston.

2. Design Choices & the Modern Alpine Workaround

Mike: Amazing, amazing. Two quasi locals, talking about the best food and bev options in the area. So, that's cool, and right on the Esopus Creek. That's really, really nice.

And tell us a little bit about... why the Modern Alpine? Like why did you select that design as the basis of your project?

Cooper: Yeah, so I actually wanted to do a like different plan. So there's this like - I don't know the name of it, but the square one that's super angular, and has like the all glass face?

Mike: The Outpost!

Cooper: So the Outpost was what I originally wanted to do. Unfortunately, I learned a little thing about setbacks - it was too wide for the space that I had [note from Lucas, the editor: this can be fixed by customizing your DEN plans!].

So the Alpine was like my way to get... I wanted [an] all glass view of the creek. That was gonna be like the money shot. So that was the alternative, but like it fit perfectly where I needed it to. And it's been a great... [I] really enjoyed that design.

3. Finding a Builder & Navigating Construction

Mike: Awesome, awesome. And then tell us a little bit about how you used the set of DEN plans to find your builder.

Cooper: Yeah, so the tough thing about upstate is like, builders are really hard to come across. So your team was super helpful in connecting me with some local builders and getting some quotes, from the start. This is my first ground-up kind of build. So I had candidly like no idea what I was doing.

Having the set of like fully scoped out plans, I was able to show up, meet with the builders and say, 'hey, this is what I'm thinking, here are the plans'. Which was like a great starting point, already got me so far downfield, just showing up to the meeting.

Mike: Awesome, awesome.

Did you like conduct a full scale builder RFP [Request for Proposal]? Like, did you talk with a few different firms before selecting one? Like, what did that process look like for you?

Cooper: Yeah, so I ended up going with my contractor that had helped me with a different project up there, but I interviewed three different builders.

One had done similar projects upstate, so they kind of had more of a plug and play model. And then one, I did a full RFP using the plans. So I got three different experiences across the board. Ended up deciding to go with the contractor that I'd worked with previously, just based on the relationship. But having a quote [courtesy of the cost estimator!] and knowing what the process was, from you guys, was super helpful. Like looking at the checklist and like going through everything - it was great.

Mike: Awesome, awesome. And then in the end, like your selection criteria was driven by what? Price, confidence and outcome, like relationship dynamic, a combo of all three?

Did your contractor, the one that you ultimately selected, were they the cheapest bid?

Cooper: Well, I guess yes, technically they were the cheapest bid, but I also was more hands-on, so I could've done the -

Mike: Oh, I see, I see. Yeah.

Cooper: So I was like ordering materials and like a little bit of a GC, as he was building.

So, and that's kinda what I wanted. I wanted [my] first project to be a little bit more hands-on. And then for me, the trust thing, because I... I tried to get up there as often as I could, but I was doing this build remote for most of it. 'Cause I wasn't going back and forth every weekend. So having someone that I'd worked with previously, that I had built trust with was like a huge factor for me.

4. The Septic Curveball & Creative Fix

Mike: Awesome. Awesome. Here we have it guys. Cooper is quite ambitious, and decided to GC the project himself. That's cool!

And then, threading the needle on the ADU permitting requirement must have been... fun? Was it straightforward? Were there any complexities? You mentioned having to like refactor the design a little bit to achieve its setback requirement.

Was there any other spiciness involved, or was it pretty straightforward for you?

Cooper: So I would say throughout most of the process, super straightforward. Like the town that we're in, the county is pretty chill, so they were great to work with. Not super strict on like a lot of... they were strict on rules, but like... They gave you the rules and as long as you operate within them, [it was] pretty easy.

But I did have kind of a... not a major mishap, but, this little thing called septic, which I had never thought of. Part of like, the original acquisition, if you will, was; I could tie into the existing septic, which was gonna save me a bunch of money.

I didn't think about septic since that initial conversation. So we had the entire DEN built and we're like getting ready to turn it on. I'm like, 'great. So when can we get the C of O [certificate of occupancy]?' And they're like, 'oh, well, we're waiting for septic, like we have to get the engineer to look' and [it] turns out like the pitch... we weren't gonna be able to tie in the way we needed to, so we were gonna have to create a whole new septic field.

And it's not like a huge property. So it was looking at the schematics, it was gonna be an absolute nightmare and cost - like it was gonna totally kill my budget. So that was a little bit of a mishap.

Mike: Wait, but how did you resolve this? Hold on, hold on. This is amazing!

So you built the whole thing, you're ready to tie in, and then there's this like late in the game discovery that the pitch wasn't exactly right, but you have to tell us how you solved it!

Cooper: Who thinks of the pitch for the septic? Like, it was not even on my radar at all. I'm like, 'well, can't you just like shoot it out? There's gotta be a pump or something'.

So what we did was, because we're by the creek, we had to have it raised a little bit, right? For flood. So the house was off the ground, which was great. So what I ended up doing was we just took it from higher up and I built like a mound. So there's like a ramp across the yard so we could get it up higher so that I could get the pitch, but it wasn't gonna be fully underground. So we like mounded it up and now I put a bunch of trees in front of it, so you can't really see it. But that was my work around.

Mike: Wait, you jacked the house up a little bit higher?

Cooper: Yeah, that was how like the elevation ended up being great, but then the pipe was gonna be exposed, so I had to put a berm around it.

Mike: Amazing.

Cooper: Which like ended up saving me, because we could end up tying in, save me a ton of money. You know, I just had to pay like a little bit to move the dirt and get it done.

But yeah, that was a late stage wrench in the plans for sure.

Mike: Wow, that is great. I mean, like, the DEN podcast series uncovers gems, and this is number one, like jacking up the house and berming up the pipe, as a way to avoid like multiple tens of thousands of dollars, in creating a new septic.

Cooper: It was like a $30,000 hit, and then you have to have two tanks. You have to have two services, it was gonna be a disaster. So note to self for the viewers, septic is a real thing.

Mike: Yes, for sure.

Cooper: Think about it upfront, while you're getting the designs done.

5. Favorite Moments & Interior Highlights

Mike: Amazing, amazing.

Cool. Well I guess we don't need to ask the question of like what was your least favorite moment of the construction journey, because I think we've captured that.

But conversely, what was your most favorite memory or most favorite moment in the process of building this DEN?

Cooper: Yeah, so I would say... I have a vivid memory of the first trip I went up there, where they'd put in the pylons and then they had just framed it out. So it was like my first time being up there since the groundwork was done and starting to get a sense for like what it would look like.

It was maybe October. So the leaves were kicking, like it was gonna be a great weekend trip. Rented a little sports car, drove upstate. It was like this whole, I had this like vision in my mind and, you know, turning down the driveway and seeing the shape of the DEN.

'Cause it had been framed at that point and like jumping up there, checking it out, like it was this surreal moment of; we're actually doing this. Which was super cool 'cause I'd been -

Mike: You stood inside of it presumably as well, right?

Cooper: Yeah, so I stood inside of it and [was] able to see the vision with the creek and the leaves and [the] very quintessential fall escape.

And it was just like that moment where I was like, 'wow, okay, we're, yeah, this is great. Like the vision is coming true. I can see it.' So I'd say that was my favorite memory for sure.

Mike: That's awesome. And you were just like, 'oh, hell yeah'. Like the hypotheses about like the placement, the sizing, like all were like panning out in that moment.

Cooper: Yeah, no, I was jacked up, 'cause I'd been... I had this idea for a couple years, like we were talking before we started recording, but I've been following DEN for about four years. So I'd seen the plan, so I'd kind of been like, tinkering on this in the back of my mind. We bought the property so it was getting closer and closer. But to finally see it realized, or starting to be realized was... it's pretty sweet.

Mike: Awesome. And then from break ground through to turnkey completion, how long did this project take you?

Cooper: So I think it was a little less than six months.

Mike: Oh wow. That's great.

Cooper: Yeah, and we hit - I mean, the biggest thing was winter, so we started breaking ground at the end - because I rented out the cottage on the property for most of the summer, 'cause I wanted the revenue from that.

And then we broke ground in the fall-ish. And then once we got it wrapped, we're able to work through the winter, which was great.

Mike: Awesome. And then when did you officially launch this project on Airbnb?

Cooper: Last week!

Mike: Amazing! Okay. So Airbnb is currently giving you like a preferential listing position when you search for Catskills, New York, right? The other day, I searched across like a couple of key markets in the United States. You know, like we looked at Asheville, Catskills, Austin, et cetera, right? Red River Gorge, 'cause I had like just interviewed a customer from there. And it's kind of amazing for me to see, at the time that I searched in Catskills, just like a general search, you were the number one listing, like the new listing, right?

But DEN builds, DEN designs were the number 1, 2, 3, and 4 listing!

[No joke!]

Cooper: Wow!

Mike: It was crazy. I was like, 'we need to create a landing page just to like show people that if you build a DEN like... the cream rises to the top.

Cooper: Yeah.

Mike: But it was crazy to see like 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Right? Just like dominant, we own the entire first row and part of the second row.

Cooper: Yeah. It's like the perfect design for up there, right? Because it's striking, you're able to kind of focus the view or the panorama on [something], whether it's the mountains or the river or whatever, right?

You're up there to enjoy the outdoors and I feel like DEN designs frame that perfectly. Right? It's like almost indoor/outdoor living. With doors that you can close at night.

Mike: Well said. We need to get you a sales job here. Awesome, awesome.

And so now that the project is finished, presumably you've stayed in this DEN, yeah?

Cooper: Yeah.

Mike: You've slept in the building?

Cooper: I have slept in the building, yep.

Mike: Awesome, awesome. And what is your favorite space? Either inside the structure or outside?

Cooper: So, I'd say inside for now, because I just actually finished the patio and all the outdoor space, so I think that'll be my favorite point.

But they're literally pouring the stones right now. But indoors, I actually slept in the loft. The view of the creek is the whole reason why, you know, that was the ultimate vision. So waking up in the morning, being able to look out, is pretty spectacular.

Cooper: And I actually did... so one aspect of the designs that I was like pouring over DEN listings on Airbnb to try and figure out what I wanted to do, was the railing.

So you have to do a railing because of safety and security. But I didn't want to interfere with the view. So what I ended up doing was I found a manufacturer to create these, like really cool... you know, I did like, black metal accents throughout the cabin, but he did these like stainless steel, really thin wires, which for me was like... you could get the safety. It's kind of a cool look, but it didn't impact it too much. So I'd say that's my favorite part, like waking up and looking out. It's pretty spectacular.

Mike: Without having to pay the cost of a glass kind of balcony panel.

Cooper: Well, fingerprints, right? Like it would look great for the first shot, but then all of a sudden all I could think about was like smudgy fingerprints and then that would just bother me.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So cool. So, epic view of the creek from the upstairs loft. That's awesome. And, let's see, where do we go from here?

Cooper: I would say actually the piece that turned out the best, like better than I initially imagined it, was the bathroom.

Cooper: So the bathroom I was worried was gonna be a little tight, right? But we were able to expand the shower a little bit. So there's space. And I actually went to Mexico City, maybe last fall and I was there and the place that I stayed, I was like, 'oh, this is so cool'. They had like cement floors with like some natural wood elements and I was like, 'this might be a little bit out there for upstate, but we're gonna give it a whirl'. And I sent pictures of the bathroom that I was staying in to my contractor, and I'm like, 'yo, can you do this?'

And he did it. And I think it turned out -

Mike: Amazing!

Cooper: - super cool. And like, there's actually a ton of space in the bathroom. It's not tight at all. We did a pocket door. You know, it's kind of like the perfect flow right there.

Mike: Nice.

Cooper: So that was like the upside surprise.

Mike: And good vibes inspired by Mexico City.

Well that's cool. And then, do you have an Instagram for like your upstate real estate business?

Cooper: I do not.

So I am like the worst at managing my own social media. So the idea of having another Instagram to post on is like too much. I probably should for business, I think it's a good thing.

Mike: Definitely.

Cooper: But yeah, maybe if I can get my girlfriend to help out with some of the posts, that would be great.

So if I don't have to think about it, I could just send the pictures. That'd be ideal. But, no Instagram yet.

Mike: Yeah, Cooper, I'm happy to go public with this one. I actually do not like social media very much. It's too much. You know, I'm like more of like, the contemplative guy, right?

In the early days of DEN I used to run the social media account. We had a social media manager for like two or three years. I was like, app free for that entire timeframe, right? Like Rachel, shout out to Rachel. She lives in Berlin. She's awesome. And then recently I like took over the social media account again because like everyone, I would say like, social media marketing has like, changed in the past five years.

Like, people wanna see the face of the company, right? You can't just like post a pretty picture of a cabin and like expect people to believe in the brand and the business, right? So, like I have now recently come to terms with the fact that I've gotta be like the Count Chocula of DEN.

And I think I've always been, you know, one of those like serial characters, right? But yeah, I was like app free for like three years and I felt like light as a bird, you know? Now I've got the app again on my phone and I like doom scroll sometimes like right before bed. And I'm like, 'no, what happened?'

Cooper: I have to say though, I have doom scrolled the DEN Instagram and it was like my inspo for so many things, and then I would look at like tagged DENs, so it works. It works for you guys for sure.

Mike: Sure, sure, sure, sure. We like just hired a new company that's gonna like, help me do like 20 videos a month, so.

Cooper: Oh, nice.

Mike: Yeah, we're like doubling down on, on the Toucan Sam, founder led marketing approach, but, cool.

I mean, like, I think we have you already on our book of stay page.

Cooper: Yeah.

Mike: Yeah.

Awesome.

Cooper: Yeah. It's live! Creekside at... at the Esopus. I think.

7. Advice for Future Builders & Final Reflections

Mike: Hell yeah. Hell yeah. But yes, we've got you there.

We'll plug you there. We'll make sure that Lucas who leads marketing, also posts some pretty pictures of the property and then at some point, like we would love to come up there with a videographer and film it. And do kind of like a quick tour.

We love the fact that there's another really, really cool DEN, up in that neck of the woods.

So, Cooper, one last question; if you had a friend who wanted to attempt to do this with a set of DEN plans, and build something from the ground up, what advice would you give them having already finished this project?

Cooper: I would advise them to use, I think you guys have preferred builders, right? In certain areas.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Cooper: I think I would advise them to go that route. Because to have someone that like one; is familiar with the plans, but then also the implementation of the plans, I think that was the piece where, me being like, 'oh, I'm gonna GC my own deal'... It was a lot.

It was a lot of work and I think it's a big thing to do a project like this yourself, whether it's full-time, whether it's like kind off on the side. So I think working with someone that's familiar with the plans in the area that has done a couple of these, that would be my biggest advice, even if it's a little bit more expensive, honestly, just to have like the peace of mind and know that it's gonna be taken care of and come out awesome.

Like having done the septic thing at the very last moment of 'shit, I have a house that's built that I can't move into because you can't use the bathroom' is not a fun thing to do.

Mike: Sure, sure.

Cooper: Yeah, definitely, that would be my advice is just, even if it's a little bit more expensive, it's worth it for sure.

Mike: Yeah. Worth it to have like a trusted partner who can work through some of those challenges independently, right? And then kind of just present you with solutions and drive towards like a good outcome.

Is that right?

Cooper: A hundred percent. And I think like, as you build you notice little things that, 'oh, maybe I would move this like two inches to the right' or you know, like little tweaks like that. So to have someone that's built a couple of these, it's great, just to like, kind of walk through like the different styles and stuff like that.

Mike: Well, I'm not surprised that you ended up at that place. In terms of, you know, your experience and recommendation. So when I built my first cabin ever, right, like the cabin that inspired DEN the business, I remember having the exact same epiphany at the end.

Like I GC'd everything. I did so much of the work myself, right? I did all the plumbing, in fact, in that building.

Cooper: Wow.

Mike: So, really kind of like took a craftsman's like kind of approach on that particular build.

And as soon as I was done, I was like, 'never again'. It was really, really rewarding, you know? I was like, happy to get in the weeds of all of that work, right? And it gave me like such amazing context, for what it means to like build something and work with various trades to execute a building.

But I was like, 'if I do this again, it's gonna be GC led'. And yeah, like I would say even now, like 99.9% of DEN projects are GC led and GC supported. Like occasionally we'll get someone in our support queue being like, 'can I DIY this?' And I'm like, 'you could, you could like, there are successful examples of this happening out there. But it's like so rare and you really, really have to like want that, as like your project or punishment, like, depending on how you see it'.

But yeah, Cooper, that's great advice, man. So, you know, is there anything else that you wanna add?

Cooper: No, no, I think you've covered it. I think the last thing you wanna do is have a bad experience with a build that impacts like your ability to enjoy the space.

So I think you nailed it. Pain or punishment, better to just have it done.

Mike: Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Well thank you so much. The project looks incredible. For folks listening, you can book it on our book a stay page in our top level nav, and Cooper, on behalf of the whole team at DEN - thank you so much. Thanks for taking a leap of faith and building one of our designs, and yeah man, thanks for joining us today.

Cooper: Yeah, absolutely. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Mike.